Page 2 of 2
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 3:32 pm
by Craig
The Bean Regime wrote:Craig wrote:Also I strongly disagree with Isiah Thomas being a sure-fire HOFer
And put Dr. J in
Why? at worst top 2 defensive guard, potentially the 1st player to hit 10 all-defense awards (Can't say for certain since I never pulled the data, but seems likely) while most seasons being a great PG offensively.
For comparison, career averages (PPG, APG, SPG, TOPG)
Magic: 19.4/8.6/2.8/3.8
Brogan: 14.8/7.1/1.9/2.1
K. Smith: 17.0/8.3/2.3/3.0
K. Johnson: 16.4/9.6/2.2/3.5
M. Jordan: 14.6/6.5/2.0/2.5
Thomas: 16.3/7.9/2.7/3.7
And I wish I had Dr. J's stats. One of the notable missing guys.
I would argue that being on the higher end comparatively to contemporaries at a position that has been
very weak since the league started doesn't necessarily make you that much more worthy. Maybe if you had like positional openings in the HOF like you have for All League Teams, I suppose he might be a HOF Point Guard, specifically. But for me a HOF is for simply the best players, so if you're the 3rd best
PG in the league but the 25th best
player in the league, that's a harder sell for me. His turnovers have always been a problem and his offense hasn't been super crazy to make up for it like someone like Magic. I'd have someone like Brogan rated higher than Thomas.
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 3:42 pm
by bellsduck
Craig wrote:The Bean Regime wrote:Craig wrote:Also I strongly disagree with Isiah Thomas being a sure-fire HOFer
And put Dr. J in
Why? at worst top 2 defensive guard, potentially the 1st player to hit 10 all-defense awards (Can't say for certain since I never pulled the data, but seems likely) while most seasons being a great PG offensively.
For comparison, career averages (PPG, APG, SPG, TOPG)
Magic: 19.4/8.6/2.8/3.8
Brogan: 14.8/7.1/1.9/2.1
K. Smith: 17.0/8.3/2.3/3.0
K. Johnson: 16.4/9.6/2.2/3.5
M. Jordan: 14.6/6.5/2.0/2.5
Thomas: 16.3/7.9/2.7/3.7
And I wish I had Dr. J's stats. One of the notable missing guys.
I would argue that being on the higher end comparatively to contemporaries at a position that has been
very weak since the league started doesn't necessarily make you that much more worthy. Maybe if you had like positional openings in the HOF like you have for All League Teams, I suppose he might be a HOF Point Guard, specifically. But for me a HOF is for simply the best players, so if you're the 3rd best
PG in the league but the 25th best
player in the league, that's a harder sell for me. His turnovers have always been a problem and his offense hasn't been super crazy to make up for it like someone like Magic. I'd have someone like Brogan rated higher than Thomas.
I'd agree with this. Thomas doesn't strike me as a HOF guy.
Dr J could be a candidate. He's a guy that had very good stats, but those aside, it seemed like wherever he went the team won.
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 3:43 pm
by bellsduck
Oregon Ownage wrote:The Bean Regime wrote:Oh I found the post where the developer says a player needs 25,000 HOF points to make it.
So, just out of curiosity, what are the HOF points of some of the top old players? Like Scott, Sampson, Magic, Schmidt.
Magic Johnson - 21,085
Ralph Sampson - 17,825
Michael Jordan - 13,685
Oscar Schmidt - 13,275
David Robinson - 12,635
Hakeem Olajuwon - 12,630
Drazen Petrovic - 11,635
Isiah Thomas - 11,445
Clark Kellogg - 11,160
Bryon Scott - 10,665
Charles Barkley - 7,780
Mitchell Jordan - 7,185
Danny Manning - 7,105
Jim Brogan - 5,055
Lafayette Lever - 4,970
Kenny Smith - 4,280
I am shocked that a couple of those names are so low.
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 4:15 pm
by The Bean Regime
I think that PG DOES deserve that extra consideration simply because it's unique in the sense that only PGs can play it. I think the argument makes sense comparing the other 4 positions, but PG is limited.
Thomas is just as good as any of his contemporaries at scoring minus Magic while being an all-time level defender and playmaker. His TOs are bad, but I don't think that's so bad to drop him completely out of HOF considerations.
Would Magic be all that great looking at everyone? I'd be hard pressed to say he'd be better than Hersey Hawkins or Byron Scott at SG who are both a step down from the top SGs like MJ, Jackson, and Gill. Then you look at big men like Hakeem, DRob, Smith, Shaq. Does he even crack the top 10 last season if he were in his prime?
But he's an easy, easy choice as he plays PG.
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 4:32 pm
by Craig
The Bean Regime wrote:I think that PG DOES deserve that extra consideration simply because it's unique in the sense that only PGs can play it. I think the argument makes sense comparing the other 4 positions, but PG is limited.
Thomas is just as good as any of his contemporaries at scoring minus Magic while being an all-time level defender and playmaker. His TOs are bad, but I don't think that's so bad to drop him completely out of HOF considerations.
Would Magic be all that great looking at everyone? I'd be hard pressed to say he'd be better than Hersey Hawkins or Byron Scott at SG who are both a step down from the top SGs like MJ, Jackson, and Gill. Then you look at big men like Hakeem, DRob, Smith, Shaq. Does he even crack the top 10 last season if he were in his prime?
But he's an easy, easy choice as he plays PG.
I mean I've always been a bit lower on Magic for partly that reason lol
I guess it depends on your HOF criteria...what Im seeing here is added "points" for having the extra value in team building, since you're forced to have a PG. So having one that is a good chunk better than all the others is more significant from a team building perspective. But for me, Im not forced to have a PG in my HOF so Im going to compare him to everyone else, regardless of position and determine if he was just an outstanding enough player.
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 7:24 pm
by 800wins
How the hell did Moses win 8 MVPs ? What did his numbers look like ? & Is he the most dominant player across All DASL versions ?
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:03 pm
by lukeyrid13
800wins wrote:How the hell did Moses win 8 MVPs ? What did his numbers look like ? & Is he the most dominant player across All DASL versions ?
He was easily the best player each of those seasons too.
He averaged about 33/14 over that span. I think he may have averaged 36+ one season
Darrell Griffith was the second best player during most of the 80s, and he was usually 25-26ppg.
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:08 pm
by The Bean Regime
800wins wrote:How the hell did Moses win 8 MVPs ? What did his numbers look like ? & Is he the most dominant player across All DASL versions ?
from image
There are his career stats.
He was A- C D A A at 35yo when he retired.
52 POTWs and 24 POTMs.
One season under 50 FG%
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 8:23 pm
by Craig
lukeyrid13 wrote:800wins wrote:How the hell did Moses win 8 MVPs ? What did his numbers look like ? & Is he the most dominant player across All DASL versions ?
He was easily the best player each of those seasons too.
He averaged about 33/14 over that span. I think he may have averaged 36+ one season
Darrell Griffith was the second best player during most of the 80s, and he was usually 25-26ppg.
Get outta here with that Griffith s*** it was Julius
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Thu May 19, 2022 11:37 pm
by lukeyrid13
Craig wrote:lukeyrid13 wrote:800wins wrote:How the hell did Moses win 8 MVPs ? What did his numbers look like ? & Is he the most dominant player across All DASL versions ?
He was easily the best player each of those seasons too.
He averaged about 33/14 over that span. I think he may have averaged 36+ one season
Darrell Griffith was the second best player during most of the 80s, and he was usually 25-26ppg.
Get outta here with that Griffith s*** it was Julius
At his peak yes. For the first 2 seasons Kareem was up there too. It’s been a bit, but I feel like Dr J had a shorter peak than Griffith did. Maybe I’m wrong.
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 11:16 am
by dd10snoop28
Moses. First ballot.
Sampson. First Ballot.
Dr J. First Ballot.
Vlad. First ballot.
The rest are up in the air.
Re: Current HOF Players
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 11:35 am
by duckyoubeavers
The Bean Regime wrote:800wins wrote:How the hell did Moses win 8 MVPs ? What did his numbers look like ? & Is he the most dominant player across All DASL versions ?
He was A- C D A A at 35yo when he retired.
dont remind me