Rhabdo and other colleges

[Groundswell]

So I'd never heard of Rhabdo before this. I follow lots of sports, but somehow missed any talk of it. Been around gyms and gym freaks before and never heard much of it. Apparently, Rhabdo is well known in cross-fit circles, as we are all reading. Anyways, I decided to look into situations that have happened at other colleges to see what's what. In the public cases being cited in the media, the University of Iowa football players and the Texas Western volleyball players are the most talked about and more serious out breaks. Seems scientists are still trying to understand Rhabdo, and why cases seem to be on the increase. Awareness? Couple things in common: Hard workouts after students returned from time off. Workouts aren't crazy, just crazy for people who have had time off.

I found this article, which is pretty fantastic and describes our situation to a T. Article was written some time back. Kind of eerie how well the specialist explains exactly what was to happen at Oregon. People build up stamina, take time off, return to pushing at previous stamina levels. Stick around for the last paragraph on eccentric movements because it describes what happens with up/downs perfectly:

http://www.stack.com/a/rhabdomyolysis

[GrandpaDuck]

So I'd never heard of Rhabdo before this. I follow lots of sports, but somehow missed any talk of it. Been around gyms and gym freaks before and never heard much of it. Apparently, Rhabdo is well known in cross-fit circles, as we are all reading. Anyways, I decided to look into situations that have happened at other colleges to see what's what. In the public cases being cited in the media, the University of Iowa football players and the Texas Western volleyball players are the most talked about and more serious out breaks. Seems scientists are still trying to understand Rhabdo, and why cases seem to be on the increase. Awareness? Couple things in common: Hard workouts after students returned from time off. Workouts aren't crazy, just crazy for people who have had time off.

I found this article, which is pretty fantastic and describes our situation to a T. Article was written some time back. Eerie how well the specialist nails what happens. People build up stamina, take time off, return to pushing at previous stamina levels. Stick around for the last paragraph on eccentric movements because it describes what happens with up/downs perfectly:

http://www.stack.com/a/rhabdomyolysis

Thanks for the link.

A good article, a lot of stuff I have seen in other articles, but some of Dr Chang's theories are different than I have seen from other experts in the field which is thought provoking.

With regard to your comments, I agree with most all of them but with a quibble on the part I highlighted. Having those guys do 1 or 2 sessions after time off might not be crazy, but having the one group do 4 sessions was crazy. Unfortunately the three injured players weren't like Dr Chang's no risk category, because contrary to them, these guys had the will and cardio stamina to exert themselves into injury.

[Groundswell]

Thanks for the link.

A good article, a lot of stuff I have seen in other articles, but some of Dr Chang's theories are different than I have seen from other experts in the field which is thought provoking.

With regard to your comments, I agree with most all of them but with a quibble on the part I highlighted. Having those guys do 1 or 2 sessions after time off might not be crazy, but having the one group do 4 sessions was crazy. Unfortunately the three injured players weren't like Dr Chang's no risk category, because contrary to them, these guys had the will and cardio stamina to exert themselves into injury.

Ah, yes, I agree that having the same kids do the same workout 4 days in a row was crazy. I guess I was thinking more the nature of the workouts in one-time intervals. Also, I think we may just be looking at "stamina and will" a bit differently. Certainly these are young athletes who, even with a month off, aren't that out of shape. But they are too out of shape to be doing max workouts, at least according to the best findings from the scientists who have been looking at college athletes. Common theme, all cases happened after time off. Basically, I think we agree but have a slightly different view of what "out of shape" means to exercise science and cases of rhabdo. Chang says athletes who take time off are more liable to fall victim. Check. He says eccentric moves, up/downs, are common in victims. Check. Pretty much describes our cases, TWestern's cases, and Iowa's cases to a T. I'll have to go read about the McMinnville high school kids. Without knowing a thing about that situation, I'm going to guess ahead of time that these were kids who were coming back to workouts after time off.

[Groundswell]

For those folks who really want to geek out on the McMinnville case, fair warning, this is for true geeks, but yes the kids were fresh off summer break, and yes they did repetitive eccentric, body weight workouts that had to be repeated if players messed up. Drills that weren't unusual. Only unusual because kids had just come off Summer break. I can see how these cases happen honestly, but a S&C coach needs to know better. Would be interesting to know how many of the cases included kids/athletes who didn't do any work during their off time vs. kids who worked out at regular intervals.

https://public.health.oregon.gov/Diseas ... Report.pdf

Edit: I remember this incident after looking back at it. When the news broke, there was lots of speculation that the kids were using the same supplement that might have been the cause. I'm not sure when reporting started focusing on rhabdo because I was left the impression that this was a supplement issue, and I don't remember hearing anything more about it.

[louisky]

horses get it.
it's been hypothesized that there is a genetic link in horses. and i think that's because it's not always related to overexertion with them.
perhaps there is a genetic component in humans as well?

[Alan]

horses get it.
it's been hypothesized that there is a genetic link in horses. and i think that's because it's not always related to overexertion with them.
perhaps there is a genetic component in humans as well?

Wow, horses get it? Not saying they don't. I have bred, raised and trained horses for about 30 years, never heard of that, but think it could be very likely. When bringing a horse up to competitive condition there are so many thing to watch for, the biggest difference between horses and humans is horses don't speak English. But horses and humans are the same when exercising them to get them game ready, bring them up slow, watch for warning signs and know when to stop and make sure it's always a little early in the workout until you're sure you can pull the trigger on a hard "nut busting" workout.

I hope I didn't derail this topic, saying horses get it really spark my interest and similarities between equine and human.

[louisky]

horses get it.
it's been hypothesized that there is a genetic link in horses. and i think that's because it's not always related to overexertion with them.
perhaps there is a genetic component in humans as well?

Wow, horses get it? Not saying they don't. I have bred, raised and trained horses for about 30 years, never heard of that, but think it could be very likely. When bringing a horse up to competitive condition there are so many thing to watch for, the biggest difference between horses and humans is horses don't speak English. But horses and humans are the same when exercising them to get them game ready, bring them up slow, watch for warning signs and know when to stop and make sure it's always a little early in the workout until you're sure you can pull the trigger on a hard "nut busting" workout.

I hope I didn't derail this topic, saying horses get it really spark my interest and similarities between equine and human.

yeah i work in a vet lab. first i ever heard of rhabdo was in equines. i heard about the famous crossfit chick that died at a meet or whatever crossfit competitions are called and i was like "she had a horse disease??"

[bdkipe]

"Horses don't speak English"? Clearly you are forgetting Mr. Ed sir!

Also, Don the horse from "Hot To Trot". That horse not only could talk, but he gave out great stock tips and financial advice.

[Groundswell]

Since we're talking horses, exercise plus one of these other factors are said to cause rhabdo in equines:

The overfeeding of non-structural carbohydrates (grain and pellets, for example)
Poor conditioning or fitness, sudden increase of workload
The work of a horse after a period of rest, if the concentrate ration was not reduced
Electrolyte or mineral imbalances, especially seen with potassium
A deficiency in selenium or vitamin E
Imbalance of hormones, including the reproductive hormones in nervous fillies and mares and thyroid hormones in horses with hypothyroidism

Sounds like our lazy football players were eating too many horse pellets over Christmas break.

[greenyellow]

It seems ot every player had to do the drill as much as these three players, which made them more susceptible to it. In an article that interviewed former USF players, they said they participated in similar drills and that they'd only have to do them over if they didn't follow Coach O's directions properly or were using improper form.

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bulls/bul ... ch/2309903

[Zizzle]

Thanks for the link.

A good article, a lot of stuff I have seen in other articles, but some of Dr Chang's theories are different than I have seen from other experts in the field which is thought provoking.

With regard to your comments, I agree with most all of them but with a quibble on the part I highlighted. Having those guys do 1 or 2 sessions after time off might not be crazy, but having the one group do 4 sessions was crazy. Unfortunately the three injured players weren't like Dr Chang's no risk category, because contrary to them, these guys had the will and cardio stamina to exert themselves into injury.

Ah, yes, I agree that having the same kids do the same workout 4 days in a row was crazy. I guess I was thinking more the nature of the workouts in one-time intervals. Also, I think we may just be looking at "stamina and will" a bit differently. Certainly these are young athletes who, even with a month off, aren't that out of shape. But they are too out of shape to be doing max workouts, at least according to the best findings from the scientists who have been looking at college athletes. Common theme, all cases happened after time off. Basically, I think we agree but have a slightly different view of what "out of shape" means to exercise science and cases of rhabdo. Chang says athletes who take time off are more liable to fall victim. Check. He says eccentric moves, up/downs, are common in victims. Check. Pretty much describes our cases, TWestern's cases, and Iowa's cases to a T. I'll have to go read about the McMinnville high school kids. Without knowing a thing about that situation, I'm going to guess ahead of time that these were kids who were coming back to workouts after time off.

Every movement has an eccentric portion, there are no "eccentric moves".
Some trainers/coaches slow down the tempo on the eccentric portion to increase the time under tension, core activation and proprioception.

[Alan]

"Horses don't speak English"? Clearly you are forgetting Mr. Ed sir!

Also, Don the horse from "Hot To Trot". That horse not only could talk, but he gave out great stock tips and financial advice.

I hate to bust your bubble, but Mr. Ed didn't really talk, they just smeared peanut butter on the inside of his upper lip to make his lips move. I was crushed when I found that out, all the hours I spent in the barn trying to get a horse to talk to me. And if memory serves me correct Don was not a horse he was a mule, but he did give great stock tips.

[Groundswell]

Thanks for the link.

A good article, a lot of stuff I have seen in other articles, but some of Dr Chang's theories are different than I have seen from other experts in the field which is thought provoking.

With regard to your comments, I agree with most all of them but with a quibble on the part I highlighted. Having those guys do 1 or 2 sessions after time off might not be crazy, but having the one group do 4 sessions was crazy. Unfortunately the three injured players weren't like Dr Chang's no risk category, because contrary to them, these guys had the will and cardio stamina to exert themselves into injury.

Ah, yes, I agree that having the same kids do the same workout 4 days in a row was crazy. I guess I was thinking more the nature of the workouts in one-time intervals. Also, I think we may just be looking at "stamina and will" a bit differently. Certainly these are young athletes who, even with a month off, aren't that out of shape. But they are too out of shape to be doing max workouts, at least according to the best findings from the scientists who have been looking at college athletes. Common theme, all cases happened after time off. Basically, I think we agree but have a slightly different view of what "out of shape" means to exercise science and cases of rhabdo. Chang says athletes who take time off are more liable to fall victim. Check. He says eccentric moves, up/downs, are common in victims. Check. Pretty much describes our cases, TWestern's cases, and Iowa's cases to a T. I'll have to go read about the McMinnville high school kids. Without knowing a thing about that situation, I'm going to guess ahead of time that these were kids who were coming back to workouts after time off.

Every movement has an eccentric portion, there are no "eccentric moves".
Some trainers/coaches slow down the tempo on the eccentric portion to increase the time under tension, core activation and proprioception.

You're being too literal. The doctor used the term to describe movements using body-weight that emphasize the eccentric portion. Doing an up down or a slow sit up is was more eccentric focused than a bicep curl. Now, if you're saying they kids could have been doing an hours worth of slow, downward resistant bicep curls for four days in a row, then you wouldn't even say it was and eccentric emphasized bicep curl? No, you'd just say curls, because doing an hour's straight intense bicep curls four days in a row is crazy to any trainer. Apparently four days in a row of sit-ups and up downs is not. But it's always the eccentric based workouts that coincide with rhabdo.

[Zizzle]

Thanks for the link.

A good article, a lot of stuff I have seen in other articles, but some of Dr Chang's theories are different than I have seen from other experts in the field which is thought provoking.

With regard to your comments, I agree with most all of them but with a quibble on the part I highlighted. Having those guys do 1 or 2 sessions after time off might not be crazy, but having the one group do 4 sessions was crazy. Unfortunately the three injured players weren't like Dr Chang's no risk category, because contrary to them, these guys had the will and cardio stamina to exert themselves into injury.

Ah, yes, I agree that having the same kids do the same workout 4 days in a row was crazy. I guess I was thinking more the nature of the workouts in one-time intervals. Also, I think we may just be looking at "stamina and will" a bit differently. Certainly these are young athletes who, even with a month off, aren't that out of shape. But they are too out of shape to be doing max workouts, at least according to the best findings from the scientists who have been looking at college athletes. Common theme, all cases happened after time off. Basically, I think we agree but have a slightly different view of what "out of shape" means to exercise science and cases of rhabdo. Chang says athletes who take time off are more liable to fall victim. Check. He says eccentric moves, up/downs, are common in victims. Check. Pretty much describes our cases, TWestern's cases, and Iowa's cases to a T. I'll have to go read about the McMinnville high school kids. Without knowing a thing about that situation, I'm going to guess ahead of time that these were kids who were coming back to workouts after time off.

Every movement has an eccentric portion, there are no "eccentric moves".
Some trainers/coaches slow down the tempo on the eccentric portion to increase the time under tension, core activation and proprioception.

You're being too literal. The doctor was use the term for movements using body-weight that emphasize the eccentric portion. Doing an up down or a slow sit up is was more eccentric focused than a bicep curl. Now, if you're saying they kids could have been doing an hours worth of slow, downward resistant bicep curls for four days in a row, then you wouldn't even say it was and eccentric emphasized bicep curl? No, you'd just say curls, because doing an hour's straight intense bicep curls four days in a row is crazy to any trainer. Apparently four days in a row of sit-ups and up downs is not. But it's always the eccentric based workouts that coincide with rhabdo.

You need to reread the article. No movement, bicep curl, or up-down, has more of an eccentric phase than another. It's up to the trainer/coach to determine how long the athlete should stay in that phase. He never calls the moves eccentric, but he does talk about the eccentric portion of the movement.

[Groundswell]

You need to reread the article. No movement, bicep curl, or up-down, has more of an eccentric phase than another. It's up to the trainer/coach to determine how long the athlete should stay in that phase. He never calls the moves eccentric, but he does talk about the eccentric portion of the movement.

Man, go read the last paragraph. I think you quit reading. I'm not arguing with what you're saying. It's just quibbling over nothing.