Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon FOX)

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GrantDuck
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by GrantDuck »

I think Mitchell is probably gone and Dye is 50/50.

We'll need some young WR's to step up, but the recruiting class looks very good there. Hope Dye stays, I love that kid.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by Duck07 »

I really hope Mario becomes the more friendly version of Saban.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by Quietduck »

Ok. I don't buy the Arroyo blame.

I have watched our offense this season and I went back and watched the season again and time and time again the play call was good but our execution was bad. If any of our receivers haven't learned how to catch a ball that hits them in the hands by the time they reach college, there isn't a coach in all football to fix that. Then we have the ones dropping the balls that are within two feet of the body can anyone say whoops. Finally, after watching all the games I can't help but notice how little separation our receivers can get especially in the mid-range routes.

All these things can be cured but only by two things. The players improving themselves or replacing them with those who can do these things.

Arroyo could be the worst OC in the business or the best but I can't see how we can judge either way with the poor individual performances by receivers.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by GrantDuck »

Quietduck wrote:Ok. I don't buy the Arroyo blame.

I have watched our offense this season and I went back and watched the season again and time and time again the play call was good but our execution was bad. If any of our receivers haven't learned how to catch a ball that hits them in the hands by the time they reach college, there isn't a coach in all football to fix that. Then we have the ones dropping the balls that are within two feet of the body can anyone say whoops. Finally, after watching all the games I can't help but notice how little separation our receivers can get especially in the mid-range routes.

All these things can be cured but only by two things. The players improving themselves or replacing them with those who can do these things.

Arroyo could be the worst OC in the business or the best but I can't see how we can judge either way with the poor individual performances by receivers.
Track record at other schools is terrible. Part of being a good Oc is having a good offensive staff that teaches players to properly execute. Teaching fundamentals such as catching and blocking are PART of offensive coaching.
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Phenom
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by Phenom »

GrantDuck wrote:
Quietduck wrote:Ok. I don't buy the Arroyo blame.

I have watched our offense this season and I went back and watched the season again and time and time again the play call was good but our execution was bad. If any of our receivers haven't learned how to catch a ball that hits them in the hands by the time they reach college, there isn't a coach in all football to fix that. Then we have the ones dropping the balls that are within two feet of the body can anyone say whoops. Finally, after watching all the games I can't help but notice how little separation our receivers can get especially in the mid-range routes.

All these things can be cured but only by two things. The players improving themselves or replacing them with those who can do these things.

Arroyo could be the worst OC in the business or the best but I can't see how we can judge either way with the poor individual performances by receivers.
Track record at other schools is terrible. Part of being a good Oc is having a good offensive staff that teaches players to properly execute. Teaching fundamentals such as catching and blocking are PART of offensive coaching.
Is he responsible for teaching players how to catch and block?
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by StevensTechU »

I didn't see anything wrong with Arroyo's playcalling whatsoever. I don't like the offense, I'd much rather go back to the Helfrich-era offense, but this is what people want; they want an offense that pounds the rock and keeps the defense off the field. Not sure what to tell people.

The biggest thing I saw wrong today was that receivers can't catch a perfectly thrown ball. Nobody can play call when receivers can't catch, and running backs make the wrong cut.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by Quietduck »

Grant,

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Teaching fundamentals have been part of these players lives since they started football. At a certain point when your speed or size doesn't overwhelm the defender you can either run the route and catch the ball or you can't. There are many examples of people in the NFL who aren't the fastest or the strongest or the tallest who make a good living because they can do two things. Run routes to get open and catch the ball when it's close. Both these things have more to do with discipline and mental toughness and desire than outside coaching.

Do you remember Denise Rodman? He was an average NBA player based on his physical traits but his mental traits (aside from the weirdness) made him an Allstar rebounder and defender. Coaches cannot create a mindset they can only help it along and teach a player how to amplify what is already there.

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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by Duck07 »

A fumble away from a 10 win season in the first year for Mario and people are tripping about what are still some very young coaches.

I really don't like Auburn so this should be a fun off-season.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by Phenom »

Grant clearly has something against Arroyo. Our offense WAS bad today. No arguing that. I don't think playcalling was the issue, though.

The fact of the matter is that very few of our skill players are Pac-12 level talent and that's a problem. We are recruiting well but we can't expect freshman to save us.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by Phenom »

"Fact: Mario has as many Bowl wins at Oregon as Chris Petersen does at Washington."

From SD.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by shoparound »

I wonder if the people saying there is not a problem with the offense or playcalling were the same that thought the defense had no problems during the Helfrich/Pellum era.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by GrantDuck »

Quietduck wrote:Grant,

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Teaching fundamentals have been part of these players lives since they started football. At a certain point when your speed or size doesn't overwhelm the defender you can either run the route and catch the ball or you can't. There are many examples of people in the NFL who aren't the fastest or the strongest or the tallest who make a good living because they can do two things. Run routes to get open and catch the ball when it's close. Both these things have more to do with discipline and mental toughness and desire than outside coaching.

Do you remember Denise Rodman? He was an average NBA player based on his physical traits but his mental traits (aside from the weirdness) made him an Allstar rebounder and defender. Coaches cannot create a mindset they can only help it along and teach a player how to amplify what is already there.

Quiteduck
Arroyo doesn't use scheme to create mismatches and has very little creativity in his play calls. We used to have an undersized OL and average WR's under chip, and what did he do? He found a way to make that work. He moved Jeff Maehl to offense because our Wr's weren't good enough. That's what you see with good offensive coaches.

I realize players still need to make plays, but when it's a consistent issue with every player, I start to look at coaching. The offense is having many of the similar issues we saw with Pellum/Hoke on defense and I could see the cracks then. Only when it got REALLY bad did Helfrich finally do anything and it cost us the championship in 2014 and eventually Helfrich his job.

Anyhow, I do understand your point, I just disagree to where the degree of blame begins to lie when we see the same problems consistently, without change.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by Phenom »

We did create mismatches. People were getting open. They just kept dropping the ball.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by Quietduck »

I would say that Jeff Maehl was an example that proves my point. Not a great physical player but a great mental player.
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Re: Redbox Bowl: Oregon v Michigan State (Dec. 31, Mon Noon

Post by GrantDuck »

Just for another reference, since people are tired of the chip comparisons I'm sure...look at Leavitt's defenses at Oregon combined with his track record.

Last year there was a drastic jump forward. This year we were a bit regressed early, but really improved the last few games of the season. He also has a track record of great defenses. I think Leavitt is a very solid dc.

Arroyo took over a very solid offense ..and had a really rotten bowl game in year 1; in year 2, we started OK, but as the season went on, we got worse and more predictable. His track record as previously noted is of offenses ranked outside the top 100. Herbert also regressed under his direction.

I'm going to leave it for now, but Arroyo is not the answer long term at Oregon.
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