Ducks Attack Message Board Forum

Alan wrote:

duxforlyfe wrote:The story made PTI. It was brought up during the Big Finish segment, FWIW. He said someone should be looking into the new coach taggert while laughing.


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PTI? Please clearify. I was also the lead story on ESPN College Football Live today, they spent 10 to 15 minutes on it. Angry voices and statement of "inexcusable" at first and by the end lightened up to "lessons learned".

Pardon the Interruption on ESPN. On in the afternoon I think.

Bomani (sp?) Jones brought it up on his ESPN radio show today as well. Pretty much crapped all over the program with it.

So you're saying that there are clear indications (visual or otherwise) that an athlete is approaching this condition, that a S&C coach or trainer should have been aware of and seen in these 3 athletes, that should have prompted the coach/trainer to make them stop the workout? Please elaborate. And if its the discolored urine then the player should have brought this up before continuing the program not after. Do we know whether the players did or didn't bring it up?

Yes, there are clear indications that a player is being worked out too hard -- nausea, pale skin, shivering, light-headedness and confusion are some of these. And in a room of 100 players working out, it's obviously difficult to zero in on each person to see the clear signs of trouble. That's why it's on coaches to be smarter about how they conduct their fitness programs. Build in water breaks. Create rests. Promote active recovery of certain muscle groups. Not only do breaks allow people to more clearly assess their physical states, but this gives in-the-room monitors more of a chance to see who might be wobbling.

Coaches or assistants should actively be making the rounds, even communicating with players, making sure to the best of their abilities that everyone is fit to continue.

And, most importantly, coaches must properly convey to their players when to stop and rest. Young men who are impressionable and competitive will put themselves in harm's way without the correct guidance.

We just had three players go to the hospital with rhabdo. Yes, that is a big deal. This doesn't need to be a big scandal or anything, because this should never happen again. But yeah, this was absolutely a failure of the coaching staff that could have resulted in players suffering kidney damage. It's on the coaches to build workout regimens that don't land players in the hospital.

And, when in doubt, start out slow and ramp up. That's fitness 101.

The new strength coach doesn't appear to have a track record of this kind of stuff happening. Really, this seems like a one-time thing -- but that doesn't absolve him of a lapse of judgement. All I'm doing is calling him out on it. I look forward to him beefing up our players without the rhabdo, and I'm confident he will.

Irresponsible journalism all over the place. You want to report that 3 players got hospitalized? Ok go for it. You want to report on the nature of the workout, call it grueling, and throw coach O under the bus? Interview some of the players who were there and report BOTH sides of the story not just the side that gives your story the most clicks. Players have come out and said that they did start out slow.

Just a quick disclaimer on my above statement... when I say start out slow, I don't mean start a workout slow.

What I'm referring to is what I call "train to train." Like, if I'm going to run a marathon, I don't just jump off the coach and start running 10 miles at a time. I'll work for a couple of months to build up my base mileage to the point that I can easily run my minimum weekly marathon training mileage... THEN I start training with speed work, hill workouts, lengthening distances, etc... the real meat of a good training plan.

Obviously, we have guys on our team who aren't ready for the new strength coach's program -- probably a lot. If three guys got Rhabdo, there were probably several others who overworked and just didn't fall ill. He needs to do a better job of phasing these guys into the kind of training he wants to provide. No reason to believe he isn't already making adjustments, so I'm still totally on board. This was just a freak mistake, and I don't see it happening again.

Hearing that this is already hurting us in recruiting. I don't have specifics but this will be used against us. Not really a surprise. Hopefully our staff will be able to reassure concerned parents.

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The reporting and espns hot takes on this has certainly been sensational but to me it doesn't matter what the other players thought about the workout; that it wasn't that hard, they could take breaks, they eased into it, or whatever else is being said. It's the S&C coaches job, along with the training staff, to make sure something like this never happens. Chip had gps trackers on everyone but our trainers can't make sure players' bodies aren't falling apart? Disappointing.

chipkellysballs wrote:Irresponsible journalism all over the place. You want to report that 3 players got hospitalized? Ok go for it. You want to report on the nature of the workout, call it grueling, and throw coach O under the bus? Interview some of the players who were there and report BOTH sides of the story not just the side that gives your story the most clicks. Players have come out and said that they did start out slow.

Totally agree, were getting caught in the crosshairs.


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scoducks wrote:Yeah this is pretty bad for PR for the program right now. Coach O should definitely have talked to Coach Rad about what they were doing before hand and eased them to it. Also with the seriousness of the issue, I think it is also extremely telling about how out of shape some of the players are. For example 345 pound supposedly Jordon Scott was known to be out of shape and it seems like he is going on fine as you can tell from this tweet here.

Embedded Tweet

Honestly it goes both ways. Coach O should have eased them into the workout, but it is also on the players if they were slacking off like the article earlier last week stated.

Is it though? I feel like this is an example of the saying, "there's no such thing as bad media" because it's nothing terrible. It's not like a sexual assault case, coaches cheating in recruiting, or us losing games.. Yeah there's definitely some accountability needed and this shouldn't happen again, but it just gives us more attention. Scott's tweet is how I feel most recruits/players would respond to this news.

As long as our dudes will be OK, it's fine. I will admit, the irony of this happening immediately after hiring a new coach is incredible.

I will admit, the irony of this happening immediately after hiring a new coach is incredible

I've been thinking that for a little while myself,"so you want to be a power five head coach?" One week your sitting center stage on the ESPN national Championship pregame show, the next week you are the center stage on ESPN.

UOducksTK1 wrote:

scoducks wrote:Yeah this is pretty bad for PR for the program right now. Coach O should definitely have talked to Coach Rad about what they were doing before hand and eased them to it. Also with the seriousness of the issue, I think it is also extremely telling about how out of shape some of the players are. For example 345 pound supposedly Jordon Scott was known to be out of shape and it seems like he is going on fine as you can tell from this tweet here.

Embedded Tweet

Honestly it goes both ways. Coach O should have eased them into the workout, but it is also on the players if they were slacking off like the article earlier last week stated.

Is it though? I feel like this is an example of the saying, "there's no such thing as bad media" because it's nothing terrible. It's not like a sexual assault case, coaches cheating in recruiting, or us losing games.. Yeah there's definitely some accountability needed and this shouldn't happen again, but it just gives us more attention. Scott's tweet is how I feel most recruits/players would respond to this news.

As long as our dudes will be OK, it's fine. I will admit, the irony of this happening immediately after hiring a new coach is incredible.

We won't know for some time if they'll be fine. In the Iowa case with the player who has been most public about it William Lowe, it didnt end when he was released from the hospital. Lowe says after he was released from the hospital he still suffered from weight loss, pain in his lower back and legs, headaches and high blood pressure over the next several months and never rejoined the team.

Jordon Scott did not participate in the workouts according to DDDuck on 247 who seems plugged in on this.

Some of you guys are incorrectly hung up on these 3 being out of shape when in fact it is an assumption that is not correlative to rhabdomyolysis. To do the extended muscle damage required to trigger rhabdomyolysis, usually requires good condition as someone in poor cardio condition rarely has the stamina to keep going enough to tax muscles that severely. It is why this condition is vastly more common in crossfit and triathletes than college lineman. It is also usually the result of over exertion over multiple work out sessions not a single session. Which would fit what DDDuck said about these players going thru 4 sessions where most of the other player groups did less. The onset of rhabdomyolysis tells us nothing about their previous cardio condition other than they were able to push themselves into muscle damage.

Rhabdomyolysis is extremely rare in college and pro-football regardless of how sever the workouts are or in or out of shape the players are as any slightly competent S&C and training staff knows how to prevent and monitor for it. This is failing at 101 level stuff.

Grandpaduck, I would be interested in your opinion about the article I just posted in it's own thread "Rhabdo and other colleges". I've been researching, and one common theme is Rhabdo has a higher frequency in out of shape athletes who have been used to training at elite levels. Essentially, sufferers tend to be out of shape, but have a trained at a high level in the past. The idea being that a month off will get players out of shape, especially if they haven't been doing anything. Then they train again at usual intensity and trouble starts. I think it's similar to what you've been saying, but not exactly. I do agree this was a screw-up by the S&C coach.

GrandpaDuck wrote:

UOducksTK1 wrote:

scoducks wrote:Yeah this is pretty bad for PR for the program right now. Coach O should definitely have talked to Coach Rad about what they were doing before hand and eased them to it. Also with the seriousness of the issue, I think it is also extremely telling about how out of shape some of the players are. For example 345 pound supposedly Jordon Scott was known to be out of shape and it seems like he is going on fine as you can tell from this tweet here.

Embedded Tweet

Honestly it goes both ways. Coach O should have eased them into the workout, but it is also on the players if they were slacking off like the article earlier last week stated.

Is it though? I feel like this is an example of the saying, "there's no such thing as bad media" because it's nothing terrible. It's not like a sexual assault case, coaches cheating in recruiting, or us losing games.. Yeah there's definitely some accountability needed and this shouldn't happen again, but it just gives us more attention. Scott's tweet is how I feel most recruits/players would respond to this news.

As long as our dudes will be OK, it's fine. I will admit, the irony of this happening immediately after hiring a new coach is incredible.

We won't know for some time if they'll be fine. In the Iowa case with the player who has been most public about it William Lowe, it didnt end when he was released from the hospital. Lowe says after he was released from the hospital he still suffered from weight loss, pain in his lower back and legs, headaches and high blood pressure over the next several months and never rejoined the team.

Jordon Scott did not participate in the workouts according to DDDuck on 247 who seems plugged in on this.

Some of you guys are incorrectly hung up on these 3 being out of shape when in fact it is an assumption that is not correlative to rhabdomyolysis. To do the extended muscle damage required to trigger rhabdomyolysis, usually requires good condition as someone in poor cardio condition rarely has the stamina to keep going enough to tax muscles that severely. It is why this condition is vastly more common in crossfit and triathletes than college lineman. It is also usually the result of over exertion over multiple work out sessions not a single session. Which would fit what DDDuck said about these players going thru 4 sessions where most of the other player groups did less. The onset of rhabdomyolysis tells us nothing about their previous cardio condition other than they were able to push themselves into muscle damage.

Rhabdomyolysis is extremely rare in college and pro-football regardless of how sever the workouts are or in or out of shape the players are as any slightly competent S&C and training staff knows how to prevent and monitor for it. This is failing at 101 level stuff.

Thanks for the info, didn't know.

ifuwant2 wrote:Grandpaduck, I would be interested in your opinion about the article I just posted in it's own thread "Rhabdo and other colleges". I've been researching, and one common theme is Rhabdo has a higher frequency in out of shape athletes who have been used to training at elite levels. Essentially, sufferers tend to be out of shape, but have a trained at a high level in the past. The idea being that a month off will get players out of shape, especially if they haven't been doing anything. Then they train again at usual intensity and trouble starts. I think it's similar to what you've been saying, but not exactly. I do agree this was a screw-up by the S&C coach.

I'll look for the thread. I am far from an expert. I got interested in rhabdomyolysis because of the McMinnville incident back in 2010 and then Iowa caught my eye in 2011. Since then I haven't followed on the latest like those in the training community would so I'll go re-edumacate myself.

I read the article, thanks, it was a good read.

Replace "out of shape" with "inactive for a period". Unlike Dr Chang's category of couch potatoes who are at no risk, the category he describes as at risk have to have the will and physical stamina to push themselves past the threshold into muscle damage.

OregonDonor wrote:Hearing that this is already hurting us in recruiting. I don't have specifics but this will be used against us. Not really a surprise. Hopefully our staff will be able to reassure concerned parents.

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Please cite even one example. From everything I'm reading the players and recruits are supporting Coach O. There's even a #FreeCoachO on twitter now, started by a player and retweeted by numerous players and recruits.