Correct, which is why after a certain point in time this thread need some absurdity thrown into it for good measure.Tray Dub wrote: I'm not, but I do think the conversation is a bit different when you're talking about civil disobedience versus ordinary lawbreaking. As far as I know Fotu wasn't trying to start a revolution, though I s'pose you never know with college kids.
Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
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- Duck07
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
I think there has been too much equivocation from the original point about 'common sense' to continue discussing it. I find that the phrase 'common sense' is usually a misnomer anyway.Tray Dub wrote:
So, first, even if you don't like the policy, it's still common sense that you have to follow laws or face the consequences. That's completely divorced from the question of parking boots, and that much I do consider common sense.
As for the policy itself, I understand your opposition to debtors' prisons and can see the analogy. But, two things. First, it costs a couple dollars to pay for parking on campus. I just do not believe that any but a very small number of people can't pay that much. There's also two-hour parking on lots of nearby side streets. And then even if you do get a parking ticket, it's usually like $16 bucks (I speak from experience). So I just doubt that the issue is frequently being so poor that you can't afford to pay for parking, or even to pay the tickets. I think it's usually just not wanting to deal with it. Second, I wonder what you'd propose instead of giving people tickets, and if they repeatedly refuse to pay them applying a boot. Maybe you think that all parking should always be free. If not, I'm curious how you think meter non-payment should be handled. If you think it's unethical to impose fines, okay, but how do you get people to feed the meter?
In terms of the policy, I think you are probably understating the cost of the parking tickets, but the funny thing about that is that in doing so, you undermine your own point, at least in my mind. The less you think the expense is, the more ridiculous it is to apply a boot to his car, and then to charge him with 'theft' when he tries to free his own car from it. In any case, I was unable to find either the number of tickets Leiato was in arrears for, or the amounts, so it's hard to continue an argument about affordability, etc.
My own proposals for generating revenue would probably involve not charging for parking to begin with, which opens up a larger conversation about the size of government and other matters that are probably beyond the scope of this story. What I often find when I research these amazing revenue-generating strategies is that the cost to monitor, collect, tabulate, and allocate them is nearly as much or sometimes even more than the actual revenue being generated. Plus we are now criminalizing something that wasn't a big deal before (going over the yellow line a few inches, etc). And usually, these policies affect poor people more than anyone else. So in general, I am not a fan.
But none of this had to do with my defense of the use of the phrase 'social contract', and I suspect that greenyellow is even now getting ready to moderate something, so probably best to end there.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
Going out on a limb here but I'm guessing Fotu wasn't considering his participation, or lack thereof, in the Social Contract theory when he tore the boot off his car.
As for his ability to pay his parking tickets, he does own a car, likely pays insurance, can afford some gas, etc. So based on this I'm guessing he can afford a ticket or two. Or maybe he should have a bike.
As for his ability to pay his parking tickets, he does own a car, likely pays insurance, can afford some gas, etc. So based on this I'm guessing he can afford a ticket or two. Or maybe he should have a bike.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
Just curious...what do you think Fotu was considering when he tore the boot off his car?EncinitasDuck wrote:Going out on a limb here but I'm guessing Fotu wasn't considering his participation, or lack thereof, in the Social Contract theory when he tore the boot off his car.
As for his ability to pay his parking tickets, he does own a car, likely pays insurance, can afford some gas, etc. So based on this I'm guessing he can afford a ticket or two. Or maybe he should have a bike.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
That's pretty uncharitable but alright.Phalanx wrote:
I think there has been too much equivocation from the original point about 'common sense' to continue discussing it.
No, not really, unless you think it doesn't make sense to give someone a $500 fine for shoplifting a $50 pair of jeans. You boot the car so that other people know there are consequences for ignoring parking tickets.Phalanx wrote: In terms of the policy, I think you are probably understating the cost of the parking tickets, but the funny thing about that is that in doing so, you undermine your own point, at least in my mind. The less you think the expense is, the more ridiculous it is to apply a boot to his car, and then to charge him with 'theft' when he tries to free his own car from it. In any case, I was unable to find either the number of tickets Leiato was in arrears for, or the amounts, so it's hard to continue an argument about affordability, etc.
That's fair, I'm open to reducing the size of government. But until you actually do that, and in fact even after you do, you have to raise revenue to pay for the stuff government does. If you want to make parking free, you're going to have to pay for the revenue you just cut somewhere else. You can try to have your cake and eat it too by arguing the city doesn't actually make money from parking fees because of the cost of meter maids, but I think that's pretty implausible.Phalanx wrote: My own proposals for generating revenue would probably involve not charging for parking to begin with, which opens up a larger conversation about the size of government and other matters that are probably beyond the scope of this story. What I often find when I research these amazing revenue-generating strategies is that the cost to monitor, collect, tabulate, and allocate them is nearly as much or sometimes even more than the actual revenue being generated. Plus we are now criminalizing something that wasn't a big deal before (going over the yellow line a few inches, etc). And usually, these policies affect poor people more than anyone else. So in general, I am not a fan.
But none of this had to do with my defense of the use of the phrase 'social contract', and I suspect that greenyellow is even now getting ready to moderate something, so probably best to end there.
I'm still curious how you would enforce parking payment if we assume we're not going to make the whole thing free. I still don't feel like I've heard anyone who criticized the car boot propose any better way to get people to pay their tickets.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
"I would like to drive somewhere"Phalanx wrote:Just curious...what do you think Fotu was considering when he tore the boot off his car?EncinitasDuck wrote:Going out on a limb here but I'm guessing Fotu wasn't considering his participation, or lack thereof, in the Social Contract theory when he tore the boot off his car.
As for his ability to pay his parking tickets, he does own a car, likely pays insurance, can afford some gas, etc. So based on this I'm guessing he can afford a ticket or two. Or maybe he should have a bike.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
Haha all the political discourse on the size of government, I needed this laugh.Tray Dub wrote:"I would like to drive somewhere"Phalanx wrote:Just curious...what do you think Fotu was considering when he tore the boot off his car?EncinitasDuck wrote:Going out on a limb here but I'm guessing Fotu wasn't considering his participation, or lack thereof, in the Social Contract theory when he tore the boot off his car.
As for his ability to pay his parking tickets, he does own a car, likely pays insurance, can afford some gas, etc. So based on this I'm guessing he can afford a ticket or two. Or maybe he should have a bike.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
Well played!!!Tray Dub wrote:"I would like to drive somewhere"Phalanx wrote:Just curious...what do you think Fotu was considering when he tore the boot off his car?EncinitasDuck wrote:Going out on a limb here but I'm guessing Fotu wasn't considering his participation, or lack thereof, in the Social Contract theory when he tore the boot off his car.
As for his ability to pay his parking tickets, he does own a car, likely pays insurance, can afford some gas, etc. So based on this I'm guessing he can afford a ticket or two. Or maybe he should have a bike.
- greenyellow
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
Basically what most of us think when getting into a car.Tray Dub wrote:"I would like to drive somewhere"Phalanx wrote:Just curious...what do you think Fotu was considering when he tore the boot off his car?EncinitasDuck wrote:Going out on a limb here but I'm guessing Fotu wasn't considering his participation, or lack thereof, in the Social Contract theory when he tore the boot off his car.
As for his ability to pay his parking tickets, he does own a car, likely pays insurance, can afford some gas, etc. So based on this I'm guessing he can afford a ticket or two. Or maybe he should have a bike.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
So taking off a wheel clamp is a fairly routine exercise, not requiring any extra thought? No moral decisions, or flashes of ideas regarding one's relationship to authority, or rationalization for flaunting it?greenyellow wrote:Basically what most of us think when getting into a car.Tray Dub wrote:"I would like to drive somewhere"Phalanx wrote:Just curious...what do you think Fotu was considering when he tore the boot off his car?EncinitasDuck wrote:Going out on a limb here but I'm guessing Fotu wasn't considering his participation, or lack thereof, in the Social Contract theory when he tore the boot off his car.
As for his ability to pay his parking tickets, he does own a car, likely pays insurance, can afford some gas, etc. So based on this I'm guessing he can afford a ticket or two. Or maybe he should have a bike.
Forgive me, if I think Leiato had a little more going on intellectually than 'Ugh, Me want to drive'. Did the phrase 'Social Contract' cross his mind? Probably not, but he was interacting with those principles on some level.
It's pretty irrelevant anyway, since 07 is the one who brought up the social contract, not Fotu.
Anyway, now me want dinner, so me go now.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
Wow! This is really getting sad and over thought....... he wanted to go somewhere and took off a device that restrict that action. He will have to pay but not with his life! Yes he did it because he wanted to go somewhere........ how are the burritos in Eugene?Phalanx wrote:So taking off a wheel clamp is a fairly routine exercise, not requiring any extra thought? No moral decisions, or flashes of ideas regarding one's relationship to authority, or rationalization for flaunting it?greenyellow wrote:Basically what most of us think when getting into a car.Tray Dub wrote:"I would like to drive somewhere"Phalanx wrote:Just curious...what do you think Fotu was considering when he tore the boot off his car?EncinitasDuck wrote:Going out on a limb here but I'm guessing Fotu wasn't considering his participation, or lack thereof, in the Social Contract theory when he tore the boot off his car.
As for his ability to pay his parking tickets, he does own a car, likely pays insurance, can afford some gas, etc. So based on this I'm guessing he can afford a ticket or two. Or maybe he should have a bike.
Forgive me, if I think Leiato had a little more going on intellectually than 'Ugh, Me want to drive'. Did the phrase 'Social Contract' cross his mind? Probably not, but he was interacting with those principles on some level.
It's pretty irrelevant anyway, since 07 is the one who brought up the social contract, not Fotu.
Anyway, now me want dinner, so me go now.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
Oh. Okay.pezsez1 wrote:No, you just missed the point. That's not entirely your fault, though -- I didn't expect you to take what I said so literally. Had I known anyone would do that, I'd have clarified earlier that evading police is, obviously, a more serious crime than ripping a parking boot off your car.You're absolutely right. It probably happened when you completely changed your point in between those two posts.
No, no, no. I clarified in my last post that the issue here isn't this being "a horrendous crime." Rather, it's a horrendous disrespecting of law enforcement. Please tell me you see the difference?You're really going all in on this "taking a boot off your car is a horrendous crime" thing.
You can't actually disagree if you keep missing the point. Otherwise, you're arbitrarily disagreeing with an argument that nobody is making.Like I said before, agree to disagree.
That said, if you understand my point more clearly now, then yes -- I'm happy to agree to disagree. What we think on this doesn't matter anyway.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
Geez this is still going? It must be the offseason. If anything, I think people would be focusing on the fact he was arrested for trespassing just a few months prior, not the implication of parking meters and what happens when you don’t pay them.
Back in the 2000’s, didn’t a handful of athletes get popped for using washers to feed the meters outside Mac Court? TJ Ward’s name is ringing a bell but I could be wrong.
Back in the 2000’s, didn’t a handful of athletes get popped for using washers to feed the meters outside Mac Court? TJ Ward’s name is ringing a bell but I could be wrong.
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Re: Oregon linebacker arrested = Fotu Leiato
I was surprised people overlooked that trespassing charge as well. Seems removing a car boot was more egregious to them.Duck24 wrote:Geez this is still going? It must be the offseason. If anything, I think people would be focusing on the fact he was arrested for trespassing just a few months prior, not the implication of parking meters and what happens when you don’t pay them.
Back in the 2000’s, didn’t a handful of athletes get popped for using washers to feed the meters outside Mac Court? TJ Ward’s name is ringing a bell but I could be wrong.