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I'm sure this will go well.

Oh boy…

If the British couldn't do it with all their colonial powers and the Soviets couldn't do it with all their military might what made us think we could?'

Quietduck wrote:If the British couldn't do it with all their colonial powers and the Soviets couldn't do it with all their military might what made us think we could?'

I don't think anyone ever thought we could. The military industrial complex just had a blank check, so why not?

Karl,

Normally I would agree but in this case, I believe it was political arrogance slightly above the military issues. Who knows, all I know is any history major could of told them how it had to end

Pretty much sums it up for me in terms of why we were in Afghanistan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvQJcMmPmsY

Pulling out of AFG is not the particular issue at hand. I think the vast majority of people agree that our presence in AFG has not been worth the negatives that have come along with being in Afghanistan.


The problem is the method of withdrawal that has left 18,000 U.S. citizens stranded in terrorist-run country, 50,000 Afghan's stranded that have helped America, and billions of $ of weapons left for a terrorist organization to utilize. We've had 20yrs to implement an exit and still ended up with the results above. Insane. Shame on this administration for causing the inevitable and incomprehensible deaths of 1000s of Americans and American allies left over in AFG. Shame.

dd10snoop28 wrote:Pulling out of AFG is not the particular issue at hand. I think the vast majority of people agree that our presence in AFG has not been worth the negatives that have come along with being in Afghanistan.


The problem is the method of withdrawal that has left 18,000 U.S. citizens stranded in terrorist-run country, 50,000 Afghan's stranded that have helped America, and billions of $ of weapons left for a terrorist organization to utilize. We've had 20yrs to implement an exit and still ended up with the results above. Insane. Shame on this administration for causing the inevitable and incomprehensible deaths of 1000s of Americans and American allies left over in AFG. Shame.

I should read up more on this, but my initial reaction is that this is mostly Republican/Neoconservative media spin. Most neocons never wanted us out - McCain famously said we should be there for 50 years. 20 years was enough. Anyone still there had lots of warning - Trump was talking about withdrawing troops last year, and there have been repeated warnings ever since. It is long since past time that we got out of there and let the natural political equilibrium replace putting our soldiers in harm's way. Historically, Islamo-facism tends to give way to secular governments as the people tire of war and extremism, until the U.S. or some other superpower intercedes for their own economic interest and de-stabilizes the area, giving the Islamists the impetus to take over again. It happened so many times under Bush/Obama, it seemed pretty clear it was done purposely. I don't know enough about the Taliban and their sway with the people, but if they are as bad as our media depicts them, hopefully the people there rise up and do something about it. Nations need to figure out their own government.

Phalanx wrote:

dd10snoop28 wrote:Pulling out of AFG is not the particular issue at hand. I think the vast majority of people agree that our presence in AFG has not been worth the negatives that have come along with being in Afghanistan.


The problem is the method of withdrawal that has left 18,000 U.S. citizens stranded in terrorist-run country, 50,000 Afghan's stranded that have helped America, and billions of $ of weapons left for a terrorist organization to utilize. We've had 20yrs to implement an exit and still ended up with the results above. Insane. Shame on this administration for causing the inevitable and incomprehensible deaths of 1000s of Americans and American allies left over in AFG. Shame.

I should read up more on this, but my initial reaction is that this is mostly Republican/Neoconservative media spin. Most neocons never wanted us out - McCain famously said we should be there for 50 years. 20 years was enough. Anyone still there had lots of warning - Trump was talking about withdrawing troops last year, and there have been repeated warnings ever since. It is long since past time that we got out of there and let the natural political equilibrium replace putting our soldiers in harm's way. Historically, Islamo-facism tends to give way to secular governments as the people tire of war and extremism, until the U.S. or some other superpower intercedes for their own economic interest and de-stabilizes the area, giving the Islamists the impetus to take over again. It happened so many times under Bush/Obama, it seemed pretty clear it was done purposely. I don't know enough about the Taliban and their sway with the people, but if they are as bad as our media depicts them, hopefully the people there rise up and do something about it. Nations need to figure out their own government.

Multiple things can be true at the same time:
(1) Neo-cons and warmongers like Cheney/Bush/McCain/McConnell are wrong and used the war on terror as an excuse to implement an indefinite war in Afghanistan that all politicians love, regardless of the effectiveness of the missions and/or resources expanded to keep the war going.
(2) We correctly chose to withdraw our troops/presence from AFG.
(3) The method of withdrawal was the most ill-advised, unstrategic method that was possible, and will likely lead to 1000s of unnecessary deaths of Americans and American allies.
(4) The intelligence community and commanders on the ground have been warning Biden for months that the Taliban would take weeks to takeover AFG, but to deaf ears. As a result, the publicly announced withdrawal during the summer allowed for Taliban to gear up and take over AFG in a matter of weeks whereas all of the Americans and American allies thought it would take months or not happen at all (Biden saying it's not inevitable)... and now 75,000 are stranded under a terrorist organization that makes a habit of seeking to eradicate those who align with America.

Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. " - George Santayana

I just wish we still had at least 1 Senator with an actual spine because Merkley and Wyden certainly don't.

Morse may well have been the last senator from Oregon with both a spine, and a conscience.

dd10snoop28 wrote: Multiple things can be true at the same time:
(1) Neo-cons and warmongers like Cheney/Bush/McCain/McConnell are wrong and used the war on terror as an excuse to implement an indefinite war in Afghanistan that all politicians love, regardless of the effectiveness of the missions and/or resources expanded to keep the war going.
(2) We correctly chose to withdraw our troops/presence from AFG.
(3) The method of withdrawal was the most ill-advised, unstrategic method that was possible, and will likely lead to 1000s of unnecessary deaths of Americans and American allies.
(4) The intelligence community and commanders on the ground have been warning Biden for months that the Taliban would take weeks to takeover AFG, but to deaf ears. As a result, the publicly announced withdrawal during the summer allowed for Taliban to gear up and take over AFG in a matter of weeks whereas all of the Americans and American allies thought it would take months or not happen at all (Biden saying it's not inevitable)... and now 75,000 are stranded under a terrorist organization that makes a habit of seeking to eradicate those who align with America.

I've just heard this argument from Neo-cons too many times. Not saying that you are a neo-con, but I think you are repeating their talking points. They have been lining up to use this argument about 'withdrawing the wrong way' for years before we ever started withdrawing as a means to keep us from ever withdrawing. they did the same thing after Bush Sr. bombed Iraq. How much notice does everyone need to get the heck out of there? I don't like Biden, but I'm not going to criticize him for taking troops out. This campaign against him that we are seeing in the media is just more propaganda IMO.

Phalanx wrote:

dd10snoop28 wrote: Multiple things can be true at the same time:
(1) Neo-cons and warmongers like Cheney/Bush/McCain/McConnell are wrong and used the war on terror as an excuse to implement an indefinite war in Afghanistan that all politicians love, regardless of the effectiveness of the missions and/or resources expanded to keep the war going.
(2) We correctly chose to withdraw our troops/presence from AFG.
(3) The method of withdrawal was the most ill-advised, unstrategic method that was possible, and will likely lead to 1000s of unnecessary deaths of Americans and American allies.
(4) The intelligence community and commanders on the ground have been warning Biden for months that the Taliban would take weeks to takeover AFG, but to deaf ears. As a result, the publicly announced withdrawal during the summer allowed for Taliban to gear up and take over AFG in a matter of weeks whereas all of the Americans and American allies thought it would take months or not happen at all (Biden saying it's not inevitable)... and now 75,000 are stranded under a terrorist organization that makes a habit of seeking to eradicate those who align with America.

I've just heard this argument from Neo-cons too many times. Not saying that you are a neo-con, but I think you are repeating their talking points. They have been lining up to use this argument about 'withdrawing the wrong way' for years before we ever started withdrawing as a means to keep us from ever withdrawing. How much notice does everyone need to get the heck out of there? I don't like Biden, but I'm not going to criticize him for taking troops out. This campaign against him that we are seeing in the media is just more propaganda IMO.

You are conflating two separate things into one. This would only be a "talking point" if we had not already committed to a withdrawal. When you say you are not going to criticize Biden for taking troops out, you are entirely missing the point, which I've said multiple times now. It's not about withdrawing troops, it's about the strategy of means of accomplishing the withdrawal with as little collateral damage as possible. There are viable ways to withdraw troops resources without causing the crisis that we are seeing now. It's unbelievable. Here are some VERY easy things to consider when withdrawing troops out of the area:

1/ Withdraw U.S. citziens/allies/non-military and large equipment before you withdraw military. Do not do it the other way around. Otherwise you will have to bring back 6-7k more troops to help facilitate the withdrawal while the capitol is being captured by a terrorist organization.
2/ Don't announce your withdrawal to the enemy.
3/ Don't withdraw during the summer.
4/ Do not give overestimate time it would take to have Taliban take over.

Pretty simple things to do.

18,000 U.S. citizens being left behind in AFG is not a talking about. It was ,and is, an extremely easily avoidable tragedy that we are currently in.

If neocons are repeating that truth then good on them. I don't care. Even neocons can be correct even if they use it to twist it to fit their agenda.