Why are people destroying cities?

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Duck07
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

Post by Duck07 »

Well if they were supposed to "clear the area" why did they check him to the ground and then walk right by him? They didn't clear the area of protesters, just hurt an old man who wasn't a threat to them.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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Duck07 wrote:Well if they were supposed to "clear the area" why did they check him to the ground and then walk right by him? They didn't clear the area of protesters, just hurt an old man who wasn't a threat to them.
The mayor explained the 'walk right by' thing, saying that they called their imbedded medics to attend to him, and that their training was to keep moving forward as a unit. You can see he got medical attention from the picture I posted above. I'm not sure if the officer intended the guy to fall or if Gugino just lost his balance. The whole thing seems a little suspect after watching the earlier video of him being accuse of planning something. The officer didn't seem to push him hard enough to make him clunk to the ground like that. It's like offensive fouls in basketball - hard to tell exactly how hard the push was.

Anyway, I'm content to wait for more info, if it comes. It seems telling that all of the other officers resigned in protest. Not a common response. Maybe they know something we don't.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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Phalanx wrote:
Duck07 wrote:Well if they were supposed to "clear the area" why did they check him to the ground and then walk right by him? They didn't clear the area of protesters, just hurt an old man who wasn't a threat to them.
The mayor explained the 'walk right by' thing, saying that they called their imbedded medics to attend to him, and that their training was to keep moving forward as a unit. You can see he got medical attention from the picture I posted above. I'm not sure if the officer intended the guy to fall or if Gugino just lost his balance. The whole thing seems a little suspect after watching the earlier video of him being accuse of planning something. The officer didn't seem to push him hard enough to make him clunk to the ground like that. It's like offensive fouls in basketball - hard to tell exactly how hard the push was.

Anyway, I'm content to wait for more info, if it comes. It seems telling that all of the other officers resigned in protest. Not a common response. Maybe they know something we don't.
Well I know enough about force to know that it doesn't take me much to be able to de-cleat an old person. I don't buy that just because he may have been an "instigator" that they can just go through him like that. He's a human being who frankly hasn't done anything wrong and they could have dealt with it much better than they did. That's why there's outrage over this imo.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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2 thoughts from me

1. Cops could have handled the older gentleman (as ornery as he may have been) a number of different ways. I am usually fairly pro cop, but that one could have been better for sure (same with George Floyd as well obviously).

2. I appreciate that we can have discussion on here. I get frustrated when others don't see things in the same light as myself or come to the same conclusions. At the end of the day, that's what is great about diversity. We can all grow up in different: races, cultures, ethnicities etc but we also have diversity of thought. For whatever reason, that is being frowned upon these days. I don't want to go out and storm the streets and burn down buildings if someone else is the biggest Bernie Sanders fan or if they are pro-choice and I'm not. Casual discourse and 'agree to disagree' is unfortunately out the window; and we are much worse off because of it.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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UOducksTK1 wrote:
Tray Dub wrote:What is being fought is the experience black people have of being routinely mistreated by police. The vast majority of black people say that is their experience. I, for one, think I should listen to them.
I'm all for listening. Which is one of the reasons I actually posted the thread. I feel like national media creates a narrative and plays into emotions without looking at data or facts.

So it's very possible that their experience and voice has been distorted by the media. You can't deny the media has a strong sway. Additionally, there are many black people who do not buy into this narrative either.

Not to discredit their voice, but if data doesn't support the argument, then it holds less weight. Not to say it's not entirely true, but it certainly doesn't justify the reaction we are seeing. Not at all.
I guess my biggest question is how much time have you spent in normal situations with a person of color, and during those times paying attention to how the two of you are treated differently? I believe that you are of persian descent? So that may be a little different experience as to I have as a white male. The way you are treated may be more akin to the other person than mine is, and it may be something you have grown used to. But in my experiences, it has been from very blatant and obvious to just peculiar and odd. From my Indian friend being pulled out of the airport security line every single time we've flown together(well over 20) times at this point, to being pulled over after the cop followed me for 4 turns to when he got to my car not try to speak to me, the driver, but my 14 year old black step brother in the back seat. To being in Pendeldton at a restaurant for an hour sitting with my mom step dad and brother and the server never even coming to our table. These are just small portion of the experiences I've witnessed, and I've never experienced anything remotely near this when only with my white friends or alone. You can say these things aren't that bad, and people have worse elsewhere. That doesn't excuse them, it doesn't mean we can't be better, and that we shouldn't ALL demand better. How you do that is up to you, and shouldn't be something someone else tells you it's not enough or too much, but I don't understand how you wouldn't want to try and help.
Last edited by pudgejeff on Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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^ A fair question though, is how does rioting and protesting be “trying to help”. I think a shortened version of your post is, prejudice exists. Yes? Some say it’s separate from racism, others say it’s the same. I know that when I was a teen/college age I frankly dressed like Eminem more or less. Backwards hat, saggy jeans/sweats and large hoodies. I was followed by security in stores multiple times that I’m aware of. (Never stole a thing in my life).
If I go into a store now in my 30s, I’m usually wearing chinos and a sweater. No one one follows me. That’s not racist, but perhaps prejudiced. Unfortunately, if you fit a certain archetype, you may be stereotyped and/or a victim of prejudice, even if you personally don’t fit that bill.
I’m curious if interactions with say black women, aged 50-75 was felt similarly. I’d also be genuinely curious if there has been any type of social study done by having young black men dress in two different outfits and see if they are treated any differently.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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lukeyrid13 wrote:^ A fair question though, is how does rioting and protesting be “trying to help”. I think a shortened version of your post is, prejudice exists. Yes? Some say it’s separate from racism, others say it’s the same. I know that when I was a teen/college age I frankly dressed like Eminem more or less. Backwards hat, saggy jeans/sweats and large hoodies. I was followed by security in stores multiple times that I’m aware of. (Never stole a thing in my life).
If I go into a store now in my 30s, I’m usually wearing chinos and a sweater. No one one follows me. That’s not racist, but perhaps prejudiced. Unfortunately, if you fit a certain archetype, you may be stereotyped and/or a victim of prejudice, even if you personally don’t fit that bill.
I’m curious if interactions with say black women, aged 50-75 was felt similarly. I’d also be genuinely curious if there has been any type of social study done by having young black men dress in two different outfits and see if they are treated any differently.

I still get followed even in my chinos and a button down, happened Sunday. Happens all the time, the amusing part of it is when I'm white friends of mine and they say " Is that person following us?" . When I confirm it they usually get mad and want to confront the employee. Sometimes it's not how you present yourself, sometimes it is.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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FlDuckFan wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:^ A fair question though, is how does rioting and protesting be “trying to help”. I think a shortened version of your post is, prejudice exists. Yes? Some say it’s separate from racism, others say it’s the same. I know that when I was a teen/college age I frankly dressed like Eminem more or less. Backwards hat, saggy jeans/sweats and large hoodies. I was followed by security in stores multiple times that I’m aware of. (Never stole a thing in my life).
If I go into a store now in my 30s, I’m usually wearing chinos and a sweater. No one one follows me. That’s not racist, but perhaps prejudiced. Unfortunately, if you fit a certain archetype, you may be stereotyped and/or a victim of prejudice, even if you personally don’t fit that bill.
I’m curious if interactions with say black women, aged 50-75 was felt similarly. I’d also be genuinely curious if there has been any type of social study done by having young black men dress in two different outfits and see if they are treated any differently.

I still get followed even in my chinos and a button down, happened Sunday. Happens all the time, the amusing part of it is when I'm white friends of mine and they say " Is that person following us?" . When I confirm it they usually get mad and want to confront the employee. Sometimes it's not how you present yourself, sometimes it is.
That was the most disheartening thing for me with my friend in the airport, the 2nd time it happened it clicked that it was two times in a row and I went to say something, and he just patted me on the shoulder and said it’s not worth making it worse, it’s been happening my entire life, I’ll be okay. Still to this day, one of the worst feelings of my life, and that’s called privilege.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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pudgejeff wrote:
FlDuckFan wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:^ A fair question though, is how does rioting and protesting be “trying to help”. I think a shortened version of your post is, prejudice exists. Yes? Some say it’s separate from racism, others say it’s the same. I know that when I was a teen/college age I frankly dressed like Eminem more or less. Backwards hat, saggy jeans/sweats and large hoodies. I was followed by security in stores multiple times that I’m aware of. (Never stole a thing in my life).
If I go into a store now in my 30s, I’m usually wearing chinos and a sweater. No one one follows me. That’s not racist, but perhaps prejudiced. Unfortunately, if you fit a certain archetype, you may be stereotyped and/or a victim of prejudice, even if you personally don’t fit that bill.
I’m curious if interactions with say black women, aged 50-75 was felt similarly. I’d also be genuinely curious if there has been any type of social study done by having young black men dress in two different outfits and see if they are treated any differently.

I still get followed even in my chinos and a button down, happened Sunday. Happens all the time, the amusing part of it is when I'm white friends of mine and they say " Is that person following us?" . When I confirm it they usually get mad and want to confront the employee. Sometimes it's not how you present yourself, sometimes it is.
That was the most disheartening thing for me with my friend in the airport, the 2nd time it happened it clicked that it was two times in a row and I went to say something, and he just patted me on the shoulder and said it’s not worth making it worse, it’s been happening my entire life, I’ll be okay. Still to this day, one of the worst feelings of my life, and that’s called privilege.
Yep, that's just the airport or in my case stores. Now imagine how differently your interactions with the police are. Similar to your story, I was driving one day with my ex-wife and we were pulled over. Odd thing was I was going the speed limit and so I wasn't sure why my wife at the time suggested maybe we had a light go out. When the officers approached they asked me for my paperwork and had me exit the vehicle while they ran it all. While I was standing outside my vehicle the second officer began to question my ex and see if she was okay and I was who I said I was. Once all of my paperwork was ran and everything was determined to be in order we were sent on our way. No explanation as to why just a go on, wife had a fit, I had to explain to her it wasn't the first time and they probably only pulled us over to make sure that she was okay. I'm only Mexican , I know what happens to me here is only a fraction of what happens to the black population.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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Biggus Duckus wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:^ A fair question though, is how does rioting and protesting be “trying to help”. I think a shortened version of your post is, prejudice exists. Yes? Some say it’s separate from racism, others say it’s the same. I know that when I was a teen/college age I frankly dressed like Eminem more or less. Backwards hat, saggy jeans/sweats and large hoodies. I was followed by security in stores multiple times that I’m aware of. (Never stole a thing in my life).
If I go into a store now in my 30s, I’m usually wearing chinos and a sweater. No one one follows me. That’s not racist, but perhaps prejudiced. Unfortunately, if you fit a certain archetype, you may be stereotyped and/or a victim of prejudice, even if you personally don’t fit that bill.
I’m curious if interactions with say black women, aged 50-75 was felt similarly. I’d also be genuinely curious if there has been any type of social study done by having young black men dress in two different outfits and see if they are treated any differently.
Seems to be working, yeah?
I assume you mean that the protests etc are working?

How does the potential to defund the police help any community, and more specifically historically minority communities?

400+ businesses were destroyed in Minneapolis. How is that helping? 500 million plus in damages, and most is not covered by insurance

Please give me one thing that has been done/created in the last two weeks that has been 'helpful'. I'm obviously skeptical, but also truly curious to hear your answer. I personally enjoy to have discussions with folks and worst case, at the end we just agree to disagree.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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lukeyrid13 wrote:
Biggus Duckus wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:^ A fair question though, is how does rioting and protesting be “trying to help”. I think a shortened version of your post is, prejudice exists. Yes? Some say it’s separate from racism, others say it’s the same. I know that when I was a teen/college age I frankly dressed like Eminem more or less. Backwards hat, saggy jeans/sweats and large hoodies. I was followed by security in stores multiple times that I’m aware of. (Never stole a thing in my life).
If I go into a store now in my 30s, I’m usually wearing chinos and a sweater. No one one follows me. That’s not racist, but perhaps prejudiced. Unfortunately, if you fit a certain archetype, you may be stereotyped and/or a victim of prejudice, even if you personally don’t fit that bill.
I’m curious if interactions with say black women, aged 50-75 was felt similarly. I’d also be genuinely curious if there has been any type of social study done by having young black men dress in two different outfits and see if they are treated any differently.
Seems to be working, yeah?
I assume you mean that the protests etc are working?

How does the potential to defund the police help any community, and more specifically historically minority communities?

400+ businesses were destroyed in Minneapolis. How is that helping? 500 million plus in damages, and most is not covered by insurance

Please give me one thing that has been done/created in the last two weeks that has been 'helpful'. I'm obviously skeptical, but also truly curious to hear your answer. I personally enjoy to have discussions with folks and worst case, at the end we just agree to disagree.
The most simply put, we’re having this discussion. The polite protests in 2016 didn’t do that. Just really think about the difference between this time and last time on what you’re seeing, the corporations showing support, the discord happening amongst everyone. There’s a reason for that, people are bothered, which is causing them to take notice. How you can lawfully peaceful protest has been watered down by restrictions so much so they don’t bother anyone, and if no one is bothered then no one cares. Do I think it’s great that destruction is happening and am glad it’s the only way to get people to notice? No. But instead of telling us all why it’s the wrong way, tell us another way it should be being done that actually does the things this has done.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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pudgejeff wrote:
The most simply put, we’re having this discussion. The polite protests in 2016 didn’t do that. Just really think about the difference between this time and last time on what you’re seeing, the corporations showing support, the discord happening amongst everyone. There’s a reason for that, people are bothered, which is causing them to take notice. How you can lawfully peaceful protest has been watered down by restrictions so much so they don’t bother anyone, and if no one is bothered then no one cares. Do I think it’s great that destruction is happening and am glad it’s the only way to get people to notice? No. But instead of telling us all why it’s the wrong way, tell us another way it should be being done that actually does the things this has done.
The attention-grabber was the actual video of George Floyd being killed so closely on the heels of the Ahmaud Arbery killing. The riots and violence not only didn't add anything, it was deleterious to the effort to gain everyone's sympathy. A ton of people tuned out when they saw the looting and videos of people getting beaten. I'm sure you are not saying this, but anyone who thinks riots and destruction are helping is part of the problem, period.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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pudgejeff wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:
Biggus Duckus wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:^ A fair question though, is how does rioting and protesting be “trying to help”. I think a shortened version of your post is, prejudice exists. Yes? Some say it’s separate from racism, others say it’s the same. I know that when I was a teen/college age I frankly dressed like Eminem more or less. Backwards hat, saggy jeans/sweats and large hoodies. I was followed by security in stores multiple times that I’m aware of. (Never stole a thing in my life).
If I go into a store now in my 30s, I’m usually wearing chinos and a sweater. No one one follows me. That’s not racist, but perhaps prejudiced. Unfortunately, if you fit a certain archetype, you may be stereotyped and/or a victim of prejudice, even if you personally don’t fit that bill.
I’m curious if interactions with say black women, aged 50-75 was felt similarly. I’d also be genuinely curious if there has been any type of social study done by having young black men dress in two different outfits and see if they are treated any differently.
Seems to be working, yeah?
I assume you mean that the protests etc are working?

How does the potential to defund the police help any community, and more specifically historically minority communities?

400+ businesses were destroyed in Minneapolis. How is that helping? 500 million plus in damages, and most is not covered by insurance

Please give me one thing that has been done/created in the last two weeks that has been 'helpful'. I'm obviously skeptical, but also truly curious to hear your answer. I personally enjoy to have discussions with folks and worst case, at the end we just agree to disagree.
The most simply put, we’re having this discussion. The polite protests in 2016 didn’t do that. Just really think about the difference between this time and last time on what you’re seeing, the corporations showing support, the discord happening amongst everyone. There’s a reason for that, people are bothered, which is causing them to take notice. How you can lawfully peaceful protest has been watered down by restrictions so much so they don’t bother anyone, and if no one is bothered then no one cares. Do I think it’s great that destruction is happening and am glad it’s the only way to get people to notice? No. But instead of telling us all why it’s the wrong way, tell us another way it should be being done that actually does the things this has done.
We are here discussing, that’s fair. For better or worse, it’s been attention grabbing. To flip the script on you (not trying to be rude, I like you pudge) but can you or others able to tell those opposed to riots/protests another way for things to be done? So far, the only thing put out there is that police should be disbanded and disfunded. Is that the solution?

What else needs to change? What laws need to be changed, what needs to be fixed systemically?
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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lukeyrid13 wrote:
pudgejeff wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:
Biggus Duckus wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:^ A fair question though, is how does rioting and protesting be “trying to help”. I think a shortened version of your post is, prejudice exists. Yes? Some say it’s separate from racism, others say it’s the same. I know that when I was a teen/college age I frankly dressed like Eminem more or less. Backwards hat, saggy jeans/sweats and large hoodies. I was followed by security in stores multiple times that I’m aware of. (Never stole a thing in my life).
If I go into a store now in my 30s, I’m usually wearing chinos and a sweater. No one one follows me. That’s not racist, but perhaps prejudiced. Unfortunately, if you fit a certain archetype, you may be stereotyped and/or a victim of prejudice, even if you personally don’t fit that bill.
I’m curious if interactions with say black women, aged 50-75 was felt similarly. I’d also be genuinely curious if there has been any type of social study done by having young black men dress in two different outfits and see if they are treated any differently.
Seems to be working, yeah?
I assume you mean that the protests etc are working?

How does the potential to defund the police help any community, and more specifically historically minority communities?

400+ businesses were destroyed in Minneapolis. How is that helping? 500 million plus in damages, and most is not covered by insurance

Please give me one thing that has been done/created in the last two weeks that has been 'helpful'. I'm obviously skeptical, but also truly curious to hear your answer. I personally enjoy to have discussions with folks and worst case, at the end we just agree to disagree.
The most simply put, we’re having this discussion. The polite protests in 2016 didn’t do that. Just really think about the difference between this time and last time on what you’re seeing, the corporations showing support, the discord happening amongst everyone. There’s a reason for that, people are bothered, which is causing them to take notice. How you can lawfully peaceful protest has been watered down by restrictions so much so they don’t bother anyone, and if no one is bothered then no one cares. Do I think it’s great that destruction is happening and am glad it’s the only way to get people to notice? No. But instead of telling us all why it’s the wrong way, tell us another way it should be being done that actually does the things this has done.
We are here discussing, that’s fair. For better or worse, it’s been attention grabbing. To flip the script on you (not trying to be rude, I like you pudge) but can you or others able to tell those opposed to riots/protests another way for things to be done? So far, the only thing put out there is that police should be disbanded and disfunded. Is that the solution?

What else needs to change? What laws need to be changed, what needs to be fixed systemically?
I think it’s for the better as long as it stays civil and on point, which I feel like this thread mostly has. I’m not sure what other things could be done, as we’ve seen it’s been a long time and not a lot, and surely not near enough change.

To the second part, I think that is one of the big failings of the movement so far, they have people’s ears, lots of people care and agree and want change, but there is no mouth piece, there is no voice that is expressing what it is they want to get accomplished in the end. Saying you want equality, and police brutality and systemic racism to change is easy but as you say it’s not just some switch you flip. There needs to be a coordinated message of what steps need to get started to begin those changes, to allow for what people want to come to a fruition. I know there are people out there much smarter and more educated on this than I that have some great ideas and you can find them if you look. The problem is, you can’t expect people to go looking, there needs to ba a face/voice to all of this and I’ve been really hoping someone would stand up and be that whether a respected politician or athlete or celebrity, someone that’s front and center communications to all what those smart people have researched and suggested. Giving us all something to get behind, because I will agree I hate that the destruction is occurring and people feel like it’s needed and if we can have that voice to get behind, to support letting us know the things that we as individuals can do to support it in the way each of us is comfortable with we can get away from the riots and put all that energy to the solution instead of trying to just get people to listen.
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Re: Why are people destroying cities?

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Biggus Duckus wrote:I like how people think "defund the police" means lawlessness and chaos
BD - what is your definition of defunding the police? I see so many opinions on the meaning and I am curious.
Even with the current policeing, there is plenty of lawlessness and chaos going around (granted by a few bad apples). How will defunding reduce those actions?
I hate to see knee jerk reactions without replacement actions being completely thought through.
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