Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

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pezsez1
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by pezsez1 »

The mods don't need to lock this. Just start a thread in out-of-topic if you want to bring in things like VAERS (claims there are unverified and not borne out by what we see in data/hospitals) or talk about why you have problems with vaccinations.

Let's stay on topic in this thread.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by GrantDuck »

dd10snoop28 wrote:
pezsez1 wrote:
Oh, also, the same CDC that you linked to support the effectiveness of the vaccine said this 2 days ago:
Yes, and none of that diminishes anything I said. The vaccines remain effective against Delta, and they DO curb spread and reduce hospitalizations. I'll continue to remind people of this whenever I see posts that could be misinterpreted to the contrary. It's a simple (but important) correction.

As for the rest of your post, I urge you to start an out-of-topic thread about the pandemic's endgame. I think you and I are seeing two sides of the same coin, but this thread isn't the place to hold that discussion/debate. That's a much bigger, broader, and more complex topic that's likely to be politically charged.
Ya, not worth the risks of taking a *novel* vaccine - which has an unprecedented amount of adverse reports in the VAERS system - when there are alternatives that studies are beginning to show are preventing hospitalization/death at a greater rate than the waning vaccines.

Why do you need to remind people of the false narratives they hear from their leaders 24/7? It's not like they need any more mouthpieces to give people false hope. People aren't idiots like you and the rest of our leaders seem to think.

But ya, mods, please close this thread before we have to hear from the same people that told us the vaccines would return citizens to normal society.

go dux
The medical community vastly underestimated the number of morons that wouldn't get the vaccine. Thus, sadly, we haven't returned to normalcy.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by dd10snoop28 »

GrantDuck wrote:
dd10snoop28 wrote:
pezsez1 wrote:
Oh, also, the same CDC that you linked to support the effectiveness of the vaccine said this 2 days ago:
Yes, and none of that diminishes anything I said. The vaccines remain effective against Delta, and they DO curb spread and reduce hospitalizations. I'll continue to remind people of this whenever I see posts that could be misinterpreted to the contrary. It's a simple (but important) correction.

As for the rest of your post, I urge you to start an out-of-topic thread about the pandemic's endgame. I think you and I are seeing two sides of the same coin, but this thread isn't the place to hold that discussion/debate. That's a much bigger, broader, and more complex topic that's likely to be politically charged.
Ya, not worth the risks of taking a *novel* vaccine - which has an unprecedented amount of adverse reports in the VAERS system - when there are alternatives that studies are beginning to show are preventing hospitalization/death at a greater rate than the waning vaccines.

Why do you need to remind people of the false narratives they hear from their leaders 24/7? It's not like they need any more mouthpieces to give people false hope. People aren't idiots like you and the rest of our leaders seem to think.

But ya, mods, please close this thread before we have to hear from the same people that told us the vaccines would return citizens to normal society.

go dux
The medical community vastly underestimated the number of morons that wouldn't get the vaccine. Thus, sadly, we haven't returned to normalcy.
That's completely bogus and insulting to people who use common sense to evaluate whether what they are being told is true or not. If you want to refer to the points that I made, then that's another discussion, but what you said should not go unchecked.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by pezsez1 »

Sad this had to be moved. But, now that it was, I'd like to briefly share my vision for the pandemic's endgame. And this is going to be really brief because I'm pretty busy today.

At this point, it's foolish to believe COVID will ever go away. Even if everyone in the USA got vaccinated TODAY, and even if everyone then went into super-duper lockdown for a month to completely eradicate all current and potential spread, COVID is too rampant worldwide and the newest variants are too transmissible.

So the path to ending the pandemic has shifted from controlling spread to reducing strain on the healthcare system. (Which brings us back full-circle to where we started before we knew we'd have effective vaccines within a year's time.) Delta is really exposing how silly we were as a country to think the worst days were behind us and that we could simply go back to business-as-usual without dire consequences. ICU beds are filled pretty much everywhere and even here in Oregon we've already had at least one death (in Southern Oregon) where a man in the ER couldn't get into an ICU bed.

That said... the good news is that both vaccinated people and folks who've recovered naturally generally don't get sick enough to go to the hospital. Vaccine protection is waning over time, but boosters will fix that to some degree. (i.e. efficacy against Delta will probably go back to around 80%, but not 90+ as it was with previous variants and Vanilla COVID.)

So, in my view, the "endgame" is getting to the point where virtually all Americans have been either vaccinated or infected/recovered. Once that happens, COVID will be truly endemic, spreading like the cold or flu but without any serious consequences. Tons of people will get sick each year but few will go to the hospital -- it will be like everyone is vaccinated, even if they're not. We'll always have vaccines and boosters available, but we'll someday (sooner, not later) reach a point when everyone's been exposed to the virus so often that only the most at-risk people and infants will really need them. There won't be a years-long vaccination push any more than health officials urge people to get flu shots each year.

I'd like to hope we'll hit that point by sometime next year. I think it's wishful thinking to think enough of the unvaccinated population will be infected/recovered by the end of this year, and too many people are simply set against vaccines for that to hasten things along. We'll see, though. The hospitalization data won't lie.
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Phalanx
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by Phalanx »

There is an alternative narrative forming which I find interesting. It's in response to recent studies showing that vaccines are losing their efficacy more quickly than originally projected, and deaths among vaccinated are increasing. It basically says that the vaccine doesn't block infection completely, and therefore gives the virus the opportunity to mutate into a more deadly strain in order to penetrate immune responses. So vaccinated people are becoming breeding grounds for mutation, and boosters will only make this problem worse. Even among vaccine advocates, there is some hesitance to administer boosters because of lack of knowledge on what the cumulative effect of multiple mRNA shots will produce. In any case, the reason I find the argument interesting is that it explains why the mutations are getting more deadly, and also why vaccinated people are still spreading the virus and dying of the virus. According to this paradigm, the only way out is the development of widespread natural immunity, raising vitamin D levels, healthy lifestyles, etc.

I understand that the more zealous among us will spew their talking points and insults in response to this idea, but I find it interesting and I imagine we will know more about it as time goes on. Meanwhile, people are beginning to be fired for not following the prevailing narrative and freedom to travel, attend events, etc. is being restricted. It would be ironic if our government was actually punishing the very people who are pursuing the only way out of this mess, but certainly not the first time that has happened. I have found out from direct experience that politicians are not the intellectual (or altruistic) cream of the crop among us. Being electable and being intelligent is not the same thing, and trusting people whose main qualifications are good hair and public speaking skills to sift through medical data and competing medical opinions and make decisions on our behalf isn't always the wisest course.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by pudgejeff »

Phalanx wrote:There is an alternative narrative forming which I find interesting. It's in response to recent studies showing that vaccines are losing their efficacy more quickly than originally projected, and deaths among vaccinated are increasing. It basically says that the vaccine doesn't block infection completely, and therefore gives the virus the opportunity to mutate into a more deadly strain in order to penetrate immune responses. So vaccinated people are becoming breeding grounds for mutation, and boosters will only make this problem worse. Even among vaccine advocates, there is some hesitance to administer boosters because of lack of knowledge on what the cumulative effect of multiple mRNA shots will produce. In any case, the reason I find the argument interesting is that it explains why the mutations are getting more deadly, and also why vaccinated people are still spreading the virus and dying of the virus. According to this paradigm, the only way out is the development of widespread natural immunity, raising vitamin D levels, healthy lifestyles, etc.

I understand that the more zealous among us will spew their talking points and insults in response to this idea, but I find it interesting and I imagine we will know more about it as time goes on. Meanwhile, people are beginning to be fired for not following the prevailing narrative and freedom to travel, attend events, etc. is being restricted. It would be ironic if our government was actually punishing the very people who are pursuing the only way out of this mess, but certainly not the first time that has happened. I have found out from direct experience that politicians are not the intellectual (or altruistic) cream of the crop among us. Being electable and being intelligent is not the same thing, and trusting people whose main qualifications are good hair and public speaking skills to sift through medical data and competing medical opinions and make decisions on our behalf isn't always the wisest course.
If this were the case, wouldn't then the theoretical stronger immune response from "natural immunity" then be an even worse breeding ground for the virus for the mutations? I'm not agreeing with the science of anything you brought forth here, was just wondering about that plot hole in the theory.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by pezsez1 »

If this were the case, wouldn't then the theoretical stronger immune response from "natural immunity" then be an even worse breeding ground for the virus for the mutations? I'm not agreeing with the science of anything you brought forth here, was just wondering about that plot hole in the theory.
Vaccines can absolutely be catalysts for mutations, but it's no different than viruses mutating to evade naturally produced antibodies. Medical experts still recommend vaccines because their broad, measurable benefits clearly outweigh the unlikely and extremely hypothetical risks of remaining unvaccinated. This narrative that vaccines will cause a second pandemic is certainly taking hold among certain demographics, but ultimately it's just another narrative.
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Phalanx
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by Phalanx »

pezsez1 wrote:
If this were the case, wouldn't then the theoretical stronger immune response from "natural immunity" then be an even worse breeding ground for the virus for the mutations? I'm not agreeing with the science of anything you brought forth here, was just wondering about that plot hole in the theory.
Vaccines can absolutely be catalysts for mutations, but it's no different than viruses mutating to evade naturally produced antibodies. Medical experts still recommend vaccines because their broad, measurable benefits clearly outweigh the unlikely and extremely hypothetical risks of remaining unvaccinated. This narrative that vaccines will cause a second pandemic is certainly taking hold among certain demographics, but ultimately it's just another narrative.
It's important to understand that people like Pez who turn their nose up at 'certain demographics' have no more knowledge or ability to process medical data or opinions (and they do vary among 'medical experts') than anyone else and are simply clinging on to whatever the prevailing narrative is - a narrative that coincidentally is in lockstep with whatever helps big pharma make profits. I suspect that most scientific breakthroughs in history have had to contend with such people and their attempts to suppress dissent, but in the end, facts will prevail. It is becoming clear that the shot is losing effectiveness in terms of preventing illness and death. On the other hand, studies are emerging that demonstrate that those who suffered through Covid without the shot are building up a significantly stronger immune response, particularly to mutations, than people who have only had the shot. If these trends continue to manifest, the entities choosing to terminate employment or restrict access based solely on 'vaccination' status will have much to answer for. Personally, I am content to wait and see which paradigm prevails, but it is a shame that people are losing their jobs and rights right now based on a narrative that looks like it isn't going to age well.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by EncinitasDuck »

From August 27th... just throwing it out there...

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/sc ... -they-seem
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by pezsez1 »

It's important to understand that people like Pez who turn their nose up at 'certain demographics'
It's important to understand that extensive polling has revealed which demographics are most likely to refuse vaccinations, and I don't think I need to say which demographic tops that list. Not my problem if people like Phalanx feel uncomfortable with me pointing that out.
On the other hand, studies are emerging that demonstrate that those who suffered through Covid without the shot are building up a significantly stronger immune response, particularly to mutations, than people who have only had the shot.
This is true, and it isn't new information. Natural immunity appears to be stronger and more durable than vaccine-induced immunity.

However, the data shows that vaccine-induced immunity is clearly strong enough to keep people out of the hospital, and that makes vaccines our quickest path toward normalcy without thousands more unnecessary deaths and the breaking of our healthcare system.

And, ultimately, that's all that counts -- that eventually we'll all have been either infected or vaccinated and none of this will matter anymore.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by lukeyrid13 »

^ What I still can't comprehend, is the notion that it's all about not flooding the health care system....which is threatening to fire 30-50% of it's staff (unvaccinated) with looming vaccine mandates.

If we suddenly lose a large portion of our nurses and doctors, where will that put us?
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by pezsez1 »

^ What I still can't comprehend, is the notion that it's all about not flooding the health care system....which is threatening to fire 30-50% of it's staff (unvaccinated) with looming vaccine mandates.
That's a good point! I haven't seen that data first-hand, but I just looked up some info and found this story which indicates healthcare worker vaccination rates vary significantly from region to region.
Among the nation's 50 largest hospitals, the percentage of unvaccinated health care workers appears to be even larger, about 1 in 3. Vaccination rates range from a high of 99% at Houston Methodist Hospital, which was the first in the nation to mandate the shots for its workers, to a low between 30% and 40% at some hospitals in Florida.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19 ... al-workers

I'm guessing the rates will improve as more healthcare workers are vaccinated, which was the case at that Houston hospital.

The other side of this coin is that doctors and nurses are also quitting their jobs because they are burned out over unvaccinated people, and I'm sure that includes unvaccinated coworkers.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by GrandpaDuck »

lukeyrid13 wrote:^ What I still can't comprehend, is the notion that it's all about not flooding the health care system....which is threatening to fire 30-50% of it's staff (unvaccinated) with looming vaccine mandates.

If we suddenly lose a large portion of our nurses and doctors, where will that put us?
Doctors aren't an issue. According to the recent survey of AMA over 96% of doctors are vaccinated and it holds across all regions of the country. It will be interesting to see about nurses. The first hospitals that have implemented mandates have lost very few staff over them.

What I have never seen is the percentage of unvaccinated staff who have recovered from previous corvid infections. I think they should be counted as vaccinated if they have an adequate level of antibodies.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by dd10snoop28 »

GrandpaDuck wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:^ What I still can't comprehend, is the notion that it's all about not flooding the health care system....which is threatening to fire 30-50% of it's staff (unvaccinated) with looming vaccine mandates.

If we suddenly lose a large portion of our nurses and doctors, where will that put us?
Doctors aren't an issue. According to the recent survey of AMA over 96% of doctors are vaccinated and it holds across all regions of the country. It will be interesting to see about nurses. The first hospitals that have implemented mandates have lost very few staff over them.

What I have never seen is the percentage of unvaccinated staff who have recovered from previous corvid infections. I think they should be counted as vaccinated if they have an adequate level of antibodies.
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/p ... t-covid-19

This report? The sample size is 300. I've seen other studies/surveys with similar sample sizes where doctors have between 40-70% vaccination rates.

I'd venture to say the non-vaccinated % of M.D.'s is somewhere in the 15-25% range.

Interestingly, the least educated (HS drop-outs) and the most educated (PHD's) are the least vaccinated demographics in the U.S.
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Re: Team/League COVID Safety Protocols For 2021

Post by Phalanx »

Interestingly, the least educated (HS drop-outs) and the most educated (PHD's) are the least vaccinated demographics in the U.S.
That's funny - I thought of that too when Pez mentioned demographics.
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