Duck07 Thread

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OregonFan4Life
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Re: Duck07 Thread

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StevensTechU wrote:
Duck07 wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote: Truthfully though, how is life under any president that much different than the previous? If you took away the protests/counter protests in regards to Trump, and looked at things honestly, each of our individual lives is not much different with: Trump, Obama, Bush or Clinton in office. Whichever side lost the previous election just complains the whole time the sitting President is in office and twists things to only point out the bad. Then we flip to the other parties candidate the next time around and the other 50% just complain the whole time.
I had a discussion with someone a few weeks ago after the Harris VP announcement and I asked "once you get rid of how vulgar he is, what specifically has Trump done that is so heinous and drastically different?" A lot of comments about things that previous administrations have all done like locking migrant children in chain-link, illegal bombing campaigns etc and the only thing they could mention was him wanting to sell Federal Land that was actually a significant divergence from previous administrations. He's hyperbolic and vulgar, who didn't already know that 10 years ago about him?

One of my friends who wrote his Doctorate Thesis on Conservative Legal Strategy likes to argue that the Democrats don't want to lead - they just want to complain about Trump and if they get into office, they will spend the next 4 years giving themselves a Hi-5 and talking about how they're going to investigate and not do anything. This also explains after why we've been through 4 years of being told he's an actual Nazi that we end up with Biden/Harris as the counter-option.

Republicans have to destroy the myth of Reagan and Democrats have to destroy the myth of Obama. Of course, it should also be mentioned that Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself either.
1) Increased US debt by more in <4 years than any administration in history, during a period of general prosperity from 2017-2019, which will lead to an increased tax burden for those of us who aren't close to dying.

2) Mis-management of coronavirus response has led to...
a. 189,000 deaths. For comparison's sake, if the US's effort to control the virus was as effective as Canada, the country we share the most in common with, we would only have 81k deaths, so one could argue that the administration is responsible for as many as 108,000 dead Americans.
b. Millions of out of work Americans and thousands of family-owned businesses closed.
c. School-age children missing significant classroom time, which predictive modeling suggests this will have long-run economic impacts.

3) Significant cultural shifts in society.
a. Most terse race relations since the 60s.
b. Lowest faith in democracy, resulting from collusion with Russia and misinformation campaign on 'fraudulent' voting, in the country's history.
c. Lowest belief in objective truth in anyone's lifetimes.

4) Strained relationships with allies we've held for decades and reduction in the 'soft influence' of US abroad. The true cost of this won't be known for years, more-than-likely after the safety of Americans has already been effected.

5) More tense relationship with Iran, creation/exacerbation of a cold war with China, no improvement with North Korea, and welcomed political involvement by Russia.

6) $141,000,000 spent on golf trips for the president. https://trumpgolfcount.com

7) Sale and rollbacks of protections of millions of acres of land and sea for purposes of development.

What I chose to leave off of this are the issues that simply weren't fixed. Generally, presidents have some failures but also have some accomplishments, with some things getting 'fixed' (wars ending, economic situation improving, injustices alleviated, etc.). All the issues that existed in 2016 still exist (unaffordable healthcare, unaffordable housing, high inequality, global warming, falling educational quality,), but we just now have additional or more accentuated problems to add to the list. These are also just the items I thought of while eating my oatmeal, so it's far from any kind of complete list.
It astonishes me how people blame the president for Covid-19, like the president is just a human like the rest of us, not a deity like being. You can't expect a president to keep unhealthy and elderly Americans from dying from a deadly virus that started in another country. As a leader right now you have to balance keeping vulnerable people safe and hospitals from being overwhelmed while also ensuring the economy doesn't suffer too much and kids that are from abusive environments are safe, and honestly taking all things into consideration a lot of politicians have done a pretty good job (both Democrats and Republicans). This virus and the troubles it presents are far more complex than simply looking at the deaths.

And regarding the debt, the Democrats want to increase it even more. A lot of the debt is due to stimulus packages and coronavirus spending, again, not his fault. Neither side give a f*ck about the debt which is a problem though, I'll agree with that, but I'm not going to add more blame on Trump than Obama and Bush.

Regarding foreign relations, hasn't he strained relationships with the very allies that were taking advantage of America? Seems like trade is better now than it has been in a while. A lot of people wanted a president to be tough when it comes to foreign relations and Trump has done that. I guess this might be more or a preference thing.

And Turmp's main focus has been the economy, boosting the stock market and increasing jobs. His administration has done some great things for this economy, and the numbers certainly reflect that. The qualified opportunity zones was a brilliant idea that has boosted low income areas and have resulted in a big decline in unemployment, especially for African Americans and Latino Americans.

As for golfing, I got nothing to say in reply.

All this to say, that it is nauseating how we desperately find reasons to blame the president we don't like and praise the president we do like. This culture has resulted in the citizens of American giving up their power to the government (especially the president) and expecting them to magically take care of us and do whatever we want. A unified people are far stronger than any government position but people seem to have forgotten that. In America, the people like to make stupid mistakes, and ask the government to bail us out, then ask the government to fix the problem caused by being bailed out, like with health care for example. Just tired of seeing people refuse to give both credit and blame to Republican and Democrat presidents.
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Re: Duck07 Thread

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StevensTechU wrote:
1) Increased US debt by more in <4 years than any administration in history, during a period of general prosperity from 2017-2019, which will lead to an increased tax burden for those of us who aren't close to dying.

2) Mis-management of coronavirus response has led to...
a. 189,000 deaths. For comparison's sake, if the US's effort to control the virus was as effective as Canada, the country we share the most in common with, we would only have 81k deaths, so one could argue that the administration is responsible for as many as 108,000 dead Americans.
b. Millions of out of work Americans and thousands of family-owned businesses closed.
c. School-age children missing significant classroom time, which predictive modeling suggests this will have long-run economic impacts.

3) Significant cultural shifts in society.
a. Most terse race relations since the 60s.
b. Lowest faith in democracy, resulting from collusion with Russia and misinformation campaign on 'fraudulent' voting, in the country's history.
c. Lowest belief in objective truth in anyone's lifetimes.

4) Strained relationships with allies we've held for decades and reduction in the 'soft influence' of US abroad. The true cost of this won't be known for years, more-than-likely after the safety of Americans has already been effected.

5) More tense relationship with Iran, creation/exacerbation of a cold war with China, no improvement with North Korea, and welcomed political involvement by Russia.

6) $141,000,000 spent on golf trips for the president. https://trumpgolfcount.com

7) Sale and rollbacks of protections of millions of acres of land and sea for purposes of development.

What I chose to leave off of this are the issues that simply weren't fixed. Generally, presidents have some failures but also have some accomplishments, with some things getting 'fixed' (wars ending, economic situation improving, injustices alleviated, etc.). All the issues that existed in 2016 still exist (unaffordable healthcare, unaffordable housing, high inequality, global warming, falling educational quality,), but we just now have additional or more accentuated problems to add to the list. These are also just the items I thought of while eating my oatmeal, so it's far from any kind of complete list.
1 - The Debt was always going to go up, that it went up dramatically isn't really a big shock considering who else would have been in Office and how much they were a Wall St candidate. Nor is this any different than the 9.3 TRILLION that went unaccounted for after the Dodd-Frank revelations. Neither party is doing anything for Main St Economics and is all about the Keynesian approach.

2 - Most of these issues are frankly State related UNLESS you actually wanted an Authoritarian approach from the Trump Executive Branch.

3 - These shifts did not occur under Trump, they were present before he was in office. He's not a Cause, he is a Symptom.

4 - Some of these relationships need to be challenged. Our Foreign Policy is disastrous and its about the only area where he has succeeded in some small ways. For example, the US overtures by the CIA in Venezuela were not started under him but something as part of a longer plan for resource acquisition and control.

5 - Again, there are a lot of inherent nonsense with our Foreign Policy and that you pick and choose some is telling. Why shouldn't we take a different approach with say China? A country that by all accounts has a heinous human rights record, is committing multiple genocides, enslaves people and holds a military conflict with every single country that it shares a border with? For economic gain? That's the reason why we don't talk about and that says a lot about our morals.

6 - Every President golfs and spends too much tax payer money doing it. Are you blaming the others one for it too? How does any of this disprove my point about him being categorically different?

7 - So basically the one thing that my friend was able to come up where he's different. Okay. Also, all those things you are asking for, aren't things the Democrats are providing.

So again, how is he actually any different besides his vulgarity? We're idiots that accept this because we lack integrity on human suffering because its easier for us to be 'out of sight, out of mind.'
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Re: Duck07 Thread

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For COVID vs economy, I think it's fair you can complain about one but not the other. If it was up to Trump, our economy and unemployment rate would be back to where it was in early Spring, which was as strong as ever.

I will 100% say that Trump is not the 'get a beer with him' type of guy. He needs a new PR person, or more realistically, to listen to his PR folks.

For Iran and other relations; I've seen headlines from media sources that said "Trump is the worst President ever for war relations". - That is such horrible hyperbolic stance. We are not in any active wars and our wartime relations are arguably the best they have been since late 19th Century
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Re: Duck07 Thread

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Let me add to all of this, I did not vote for Trump in 2016 and think he has the WORST decorum and PR of any president in my lifetime, and I am not a big Trump fan, but I'm also not ignorant and headline happy like too many currently are.


-- As for race relations, how has Trump made them worse?

I would say there are strong "counter protests" in regards to race with Trump, but please tell me how Trump has made it worse. The two main talking points most bring up are, that he said the "KKK has good people" in Charlotesville. He actually called them deplorable and denounced them twice in that speech. The other example, is that he called hispanics/mexicans rapists and killers. He did NOT do that, he called MS-13 rapists and killers and said that folks of Mexico are "fine people, stuck under tyranny of MS-13".


The two main talking points that people bring up are horribly misinformed and misguided
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lukeyrid13 wrote:The two main talking points that people bring up are horribly misinformed and misguided
About 6 months in I was in line at a store when a woman was complaining loudly about him. I spoke up said I know he was acting Presidential once he started drone striking the children of US Citizens just like Obama did. She replied that she had never heard of that to which I merely said "of course you don't hear about that."

There's plenty to go after him for but he also uses that vulgarity as his shield and shiny object. People focus on that while he's off catering to Wall St Elites and reallocating the War Machine resources so that you don't focus on the details. With Obama, it was all about how wonderful and amazing he is and how special we are to have him (doing all of the same things Bush did but adding even more destruction and death.)
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I see I've run into a room full of "it was everybody BUT him" folks. I must've forgot how the president was this helpless individual who is definitely not the leader of a country, a political party that controlled the House and Senate for two years and Senate for two more, and a figurehead who has endeared a loyal following of millions.

QuietDuck, I think you have a very antiquated and narrow-minded thinking of what power the presidency (and head of a political party) holds, particularly when that party controls two branches of government. A 1950s definition of the executive branch has a gulf between it and the reality of the power that a president and his administration yield, as described in my first paragraph.
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StevensTechU wrote:I see I've run into a room full of "it was everybody BUT him" folks. Nice.
That's not my point and never has been. It's how is he somehow MORE awful than all the other awful people before him, once you take away his vulgarity?

He should have been impeached...for violating the War Powers Act; but that's not what they charged him with because then they've got to do it to all the other ones before him, too.

That we're told he somehow represents an existential threat and then we're given a Biden/Harris ticket should also be pretty obvious to these overt problems with our 2-party system.
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But please, guys, argue with me more about how we're better off attacking legitimate democratic processes, the 4th branch of government (journalism), shifting from a relational means of international affairs to a transactional one, and intentionally trying to divide Americans.
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StevensTechU wrote:But please, guys, argue with me more about how we're better off attacking legitimate democratic processes, the 4th branch of government (journalism), shifting from a relational means of international affairs to a transactional one, and intentionally trying to divide Americans.
Do you not realize that this was all occurring under the last administration?
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Nope, just an accurate view of our system. No president has been able to control congress period. Congress has its own perks and powers and jealously guards its priviliges. Since when have you seen a unified political party on either side of the fence... And the leaders of the Republicans or the Democrats is not the current President in office. To think so shows an uneducated view. Why should the power brokers take office? That only restricts their power and limits what they can do. Any student of history or politics knows that the movers and shakers love the status as it is. The only surprise was the Donald was elected, the last time I can think an outsider like him was elected as Andrew Jackson or Abraham Lincoln and they were hated by the power brokers of their time even more than Donald. Matter of fact that if Lincoln hadn't won the Civil War and died as a president you would of heard a lot more negative about him both true and false

By the way Antiquated and narrow minded usually means I can't argue with you so I'm going to call you names. So thank you
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Duck07 wrote:
lukeyrid13 wrote:The two main talking points that people bring up are horribly misinformed and misguided
About 6 months in I was in line at a store when a woman was complaining loudly about him. I spoke up said I know he was acting Presidential once he started drone striking the children of US Citizens just like Obama did. She replied that she had never heard of that to which I merely said "of course you don't hear about that."

There's plenty to go after him for but he also uses that vulgarity as his shield and shiny object. People focus on that while he's off catering to Wall St Elites and reallocating the War Machine resources so that you don't focus on the details. With Obama, it was all about how wonderful and amazing he is and how special we are to have him (doing all of the same things Bush did but adding even more destruction and death.)

The last 10 years of my career I worked for tech companies doing federal contracting with dept of energy, DOD(primarily through contractors) and state purchasing. Working with lobbyist many times having to hold my nose.


I can tell you that a president given a PDB is given a perspective that is driven by contractors and consulting companies and from a position of huge political leverage. Obama and even worse Bush was pretty clueless about a lot of things, but at least they had a government team that could manage the day to day operations. Eisenhower warned about the combination of the Military/corporate establishment and that has continued to fester since the late 40’s to what we have now.

The mistake that you make is that a president generally is not the one calling those shots and underneath really has limited control or information in regards to DOD until after the fact. That goes for Bush, Obama or Trump.

One thing to Obama’s credit he tried to cut the DOD budget and the black budget bleed. The deficit while it was still high was trending in the right direction at the end of his tenure.

Trump has no inclination, ability or intelligence to operate at any level. He’s the same guy as he was 35 yrs ago when he drove every business he was involved into the ground. Back then he had his daddy and bankruptcies to bail him out. That can’t work in government. We literary have now is a brazen kleptocracy on the executive level manned by a bunch of plutocrats at the cabinet levels.

We need a functioning staffed government to get back to normalcy. That should be a non-partisan goal of everyone.
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rentdodger wrote: We need a functioning staffed government to get back to normalcy. That should be a non-partisan goal of everyone.
And yet all we're going to get is a Trump vs Biden debate/choice.
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Duck07 wrote:
StevensTechU wrote:But please, guys, argue with me more about how we're better off attacking legitimate democratic processes, the 4th branch of government (journalism), shifting from a relational means of international affairs to a transactional one, and intentionally trying to divide Americans.
Do you not realize that this was all occurring under the last administration?
Really?

Please document the financial malfeasance of the last administration?

With Trump it started from day 1. His inaugural committee can’t account for 40-60 million dollars and it goes downhill from there.

I have a lot of issues with Obama’s complacency and detail. He wasn’t cleaning out the vault on the job.
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rentdodger wrote:
Duck07 wrote:
StevensTechU wrote:But please, guys, argue with me more about how we're better off attacking legitimate democratic processes, the 4th branch of government (journalism), shifting from a relational means of international affairs to a transactional one, and intentionally trying to divide Americans.
Do you not realize that this was all occurring under the last administration?
Really?

Please document the financial malfeasance of the last administration?

With Trump it started from day 1. His inaugural committee can’t account for 40-60 million dollars and it goes downhill from there.

I have a lot of issues with Obama’s complacency and detail. He wasn’t cleaning out the vault on the job.
Not a single person was charged with any crimes relating to the massive fraud from the mortgage crisis, there's one example but I probably need to provide more since the burden of proof rests solely on me, lol.
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