Remember that "Level 10" Yahoo story?

[DarronThomas5]

I wasn't comparing what they did to USC. I think that the penalty to USC should be about the max that the NCAA applies. Beyond that and it's punishing people who aren't responsible more than those who are. That just doesn't make any sense.

A greater penalty would not provide a greater deterrent. So, what function would it serve?

The SMU Penalty was levied in 87 for violations that mostly occurred between 81 and 84.

[wheaton4prez]

Yes. And it was just as senseless then as it would be now.

The people responsible should be held accountable. There should be some undesirable consequence to function as a deterrent. However, there is no good reason I see for why a program should be eliminated from football because some individuals associated with it at some point in time did something wrong.

[Black_and_Yellow]

Yes. And it was just as senseless then as it would be now.

The people responsible should be held accountable. There should be some undesirable consequence to function as a deterrent. However, there is no good reason I see for why a program should be eliminated from football because some individuals associated with it at some point in time did something wrong.

Miami's problem is that it wasn't some individuals it was widespread and ingrained within the culture of the program. Administrators, coaches, and athletes were all involved over a long period of time. Calling this a lack of institutional control is understatement because the institution was complicit in the behavior. Obviously penalties were not a strong enough deterent for the U. If the U gets penalties like USC then it will show that even if you brake every rule in the book you will get hit but it will only be so hard. I'm not saying that they will get the season taken away, but they should get the stiffest penalties since SMU. This isn't some guys got a free meal or took a few hundred from an agent. This isn't individuals this was the institution. Obviously the NCAA rules and the enforcement rules are flawed, but that doesn't excuse all or even many of these violations.

Shapiro was throwing Prostitute Parties on the regular.

[Quack_12]

I think it was about a 10. Reading it yesterday it seemed pretty crazy.

[duckfan22]

If i was the president of the U I'm going to be looking for a new athletic directer
and staff. There is no way they didn't know or suspect something in that wide spread
and length of time. Hell the president may be involved. This is gonna get worse before it get's better for them. The NCAA will make an example of them if this is true. We thought Ohio State scandal was bad. Wait til more of this shakes out.. yikes.

[wheaton4prez]

Miami's problem is that it wasn't some individuals it was widespread and ingrained within the culture of the program. Administrators, coaches, and athletes were all involved over a long period of time. Calling this a lack of institutional control is understatement because the institution was complicit in the behavior. Obviously penalties were not a strong enough deterent for the U. If the U gets penalties like USC then it will show that even if you brake every rule in the book you will get hit but it will only be so hard. I'm not saying that they will get the season taken away, but they should get the stiffest penalties since SMU. This isn't some guys got a free meal or took a few hundred from an agent. This isn't individuals this was the institution. Obviously the NCAA rules and the enforcement rules are flawed, but that doesn't excuse all or even many of these violations.

Shapiro was throwing Prostitute Parties on the regular.

Do you really think that Shapiro or any of the people involved with this would have done a single thing differently if some other program had received a harsher penalty?

They already knew that their actions were against the rules and would result in severe penalties. That entire concept did not work on them. Creating some excessive penalty now would do nothing but satisfy the bloodlust of rival fans who are really in no position to receive justice from those who would be punished.

[karlhungis]

Miami's problem is that it wasn't some individuals it was widespread and ingrained within the culture of the program. Administrators, coaches, and athletes were all involved over a long period of time. Calling this a lack of institutional control is understatement because the institution was complicit in the behavior. Obviously penalties were not a strong enough deterent for the U. If the U gets penalties like USC then it will show that even if you brake every rule in the book you will get hit but it will only be so hard. I'm not saying that they will get the season taken away, but they should get the stiffest penalties since SMU. This isn't some guys got a free meal or took a few hundred from an agent. This isn't individuals this was the institution. Obviously the NCAA rules and the enforcement rules are flawed, but that doesn't excuse all or even many of these violations.

Shapiro was throwing Prostitute Parties on the regular.

Do you really think that Shapiro or any of the people involved with this would have done a single thing differently if some other program had received a harsher penalty?

They already knew that their actions were against the rules and would result in severe penalties. That entire concept did not work on them. Creating some excessive penalty now would do nothing but satisfy the bloodlust of rival fans who are really in no position to receive justice from those who would be punished.

I think the University would have kept a closer eye on this and kept guys like Shapiro away from the program. Shapiro himself said if they looked into it at all, they would have uncovered everything but the university chose to look the other way. The punishment won't stop guys like Shapiro from existing, but it will make schools think twice before letting a guy like that get close to the program.

[maxduck]

Oh my, I didn't realize that Paul Dee, Miami Athletic Director, was head of the NCAA Infractions Committee on USC. You know, the committee that ruled Southern Cal lacked institutional control.

http://espn.go.com/blog/pac12/post/_/id ... s#comments

[wheaton4prez]

I think the University would have kept a closer eye on this and kept guys like Shapiro away from the program. Shapiro himself said if they looked into it at all, they would have uncovered everything but the university chose to look the other way. The punishment won't stop guys like Shapiro from existing, but it will make schools think twice before letting a guy like that get close to the program.

Which punishment specifically? I'm not saying that they shouldn't be punished at all. Just that the punishment shouldn't be so extreme that it's an effective death penalty to the program and people involved that didn't do anything wrong.

USC got a pretty harsh penalty, imo. If that is not enough to make schools think twice, I don't think any further punishment would make any additional difference. I think it's highly unlikely that anyone at Miami was saying "Well. This is wrong. But, if we get caught, the penalty won't be too bad."

More likely, the players were saying "by the time this comes out, I'll be an NFL star anyway." I think the fix for this type of thing is consequences for players in the NFL.

[sickaduck]

In related news:

Miami has just purchased the major portion of the KY Jelly stock in the United States. Something about "easing the upcoming pain"....

[Black_and_Yellow]

I think the University would have kept a closer eye on this and kept guys like Shapiro away from the program. Shapiro himself said if they looked into it at all, they would have uncovered everything but the university chose to look the other way. The punishment won't stop guys like Shapiro from existing, but it will make schools think twice before letting a guy like that get close to the program.

Which punishment specifically? I'm not saying that they shouldn't be punished at all. Just that the punishment shouldn't be so extreme that it's an effective death penalty to the program and people involved that didn't do anything wrong.

USC got a pretty harsh penalty, imo. If that is not enough to make schools think twice, I don't think any further punishment would make any additional difference. I think it's highly unlikely that anyone at Miami was saying "Well. This is wrong. But, if we get caught, the penalty won't be too bad."

More likely, the players were saying "by the time this comes out, I'll be an NFL star anyway." I think the fix for this type of thing is consequences for players in the NFL.

I'm not calling for excessive punishment, but the punishment should fit the violation. This is the easily the worst set of violations (that we know about) in the last 30 years. If there isn't a strong penalty then it shows every other school you can cheat all you want, because the punishment really won't get too bad. This is the culture of the Miami program.

"on December 20, 1995 the NCAA announced that Miami would be subject to severe sanctions for numerous infractions within the athletic department. Among the sanctions was a one-year ban from postseason participation and a scholarship reduction of 31 over a three year period beginning in 1996.

In 1994, Tony Russell, a former UM academic advisor, pleaded guilty to helping more than 80 student athletes, 57 of whom were football players, falsify Pell Grant applications in exchange for kickbacks from the players themselves. The scandal dated all the way back to 1989 and secured more than $220,000 in federal grant money. Federal officials later said that Russell had engineered "perhaps the largest centralized fraud ... ever committed" in the history of the Pell Grant program.[69][70]

In late 1995, the NCAA concluded that, in addition to the fraudulent Pell Grants facilitated by Russell, the university had also provided or allowed over $400,000 worth of other, improper payments to Miami football players. The NCAA also found that the university had failed to wholly implement its drug testing program, and permitted three football student-athletes to compete without being subject to the required disciplinary measures specified in the policy. Finally, the NCAA concluded, the university had lost institutional control over the football program.[71] Miami docked itself seven scholarships as part of a self-imposed sanction in 1995, and the NCAA took away another 24 scholarships over the next two years" -Wikipedia

[buckmarkduck]

I think they should lose half the scholies for 5 years, and have a 5-6 year bowl ban. This goes a lot deeper than just football and a few players, remember SC was ONLY 1 guy and they got slammed. This guy is even saying that no HC was involved but a few assistants where, and would even bring recruits to his house so he could close the deal. This makes SC, tOSU cases look like child's play.

[greenyellow]

In related news:

Miami has just purchased the major portion of the KY Jelly stock in the United States. Something about "easing the upcoming pain"....

They are going to get reamed hard if even half of the incidents stated are true.

[wheaton4prez]

I'm not calling for excessive punishment, but the punishment should fit the violation. This is the easily the worst set of violations (that we know about) in the last 30 years. If there isn't a strong penalty then it shows every other school you can cheat all you want, because the punishment really won't get too bad. This is the culture of the Miami program.

No. It doesn't. There isn't a program in the nation that doesn't want to avoid the punishment that USC received.

"on December 20, 1995 the NCAA announced that Miami would be subject to severe sanctions for numerous infractions within the athletic department. Among the sanctions was a one-year ban from postseason participation and a scholarship reduction of 31 over a three year period beginning in 1996.

...

Yes. 10 years before this latest incident, others were caught doing some unrelated violation and were punished for it. Different time, different people involved, penalty already served.

[Black_and_Yellow]

I'm not calling for excessive punishment, but the punishment should fit the violation. This is the easily the worst set of violations (that we know about) in the last 30 years. If there isn't a strong penalty then it shows every other school you can cheat all you want, because the punishment really won't get too bad. This is the culture of the Miami program.

No. It doesn't. There isn't a program in the nation that doesn't want to avoid the punishment that USC received.

"on December 20, 1995 the NCAA announced that Miami would be subject to severe sanctions for numerous infractions within the athletic department. Among the sanctions was a one-year ban from postseason participation and a scholarship reduction of 31 over a three year period beginning in 1996.

...

Yes. 10 years before this latest incident, others were caught doing some unrelated violation and were punished for it. Different time, different people involved, penalty already served.

It was 7 years after and Paul Dee (the former Miami AD/ former NCAA infractions commitee chairman) was around for both sets of violations. "Dee himself, AD from 1993-2008" (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... -hypocrisy) Miami clearly has a culture of violations. These violations are not isolated. These violations are not minor. Sure teams would rather not have sanctions, but if you can break the rules repeatedly (extreme violations in both periods) you should expect the level of sanctions to rise. If you took all the violation (and possibly the rumors too) from the last three years in bcs-subdivision football multiplied them by 3 and added prostitutes you might not even get to level Miami was operating at.

There are also players who are part of the violations currently on the team, the violations involving Shapiro ended in 2010. Plenty of people who were part of this are still around. Yea it sucks for Al Golden, but it doesn't mean Miami shouldn't get strong punishment.