Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Moderators: greenyellow, UOducksTK1

Post Reply
squintsdd
Sophomore
Posts: 1582
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:39 am

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by squintsdd »

pezsez1 wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 9:57 pm
Very few teams have a backup pg of the future. What the hell is that even anyway?

By year 3 and 4 in the NBA players, even young ones, have pretty much shown their potential. Very few players make significant leaps in talent and skill after year 4. Also, I would expect a front office to be able to build a team around said players in that time frame. If Sharpe and Henderson show significant improvement by then, and this team still hasn't made a playoff push in a couple years, then that's a failure on the front office. There is zero reason why a core of Henderson, Ayton, and Sharpe can't make the playoffs in 2 years besides either they fail to grow, or the front office fails to build around them. You might be on with waiting 5 more years to make the playoffs, but 99% of the fan base is not
Most winning teams have a clear backup PG. Assuming that we're going to trade Simons (which we should), we don't even have -a- backup point guard. That's what that is. We don't even have any reliable scorers on the bench. Banton was a nice story last season, but he was getting a ton of shots on a tanking team against teams that knew they could whip us with minimal effort.

The issue you're missing here is that Scoot/Shae can't drag this team through the playoffs by themselves. We literally just spent a decade watching that movie with Dame and CJ. We also won't get deep into the playoffs with our two best players and scorers being two guards. That's just not today's NBA. This roster isn't yet complete. It could possibly be complete after a strong 2025 draft, assuming we get a high lottery pick -- so then add three to four years to 2025 for that player to grow into what we'd need him to become. That puts us into 2028 or maybe 2029, hence why the smart move is trading Ayton while his value his high.

This team is NOT a playoff team in 2025. Just no way. It might start looking that way by the season's end, but no. And nobody should want us to sneak in through the play-in and get spanked by Denver, Minnesota, OKC, etc.

Cronin has made it pretty clear in his recent pressers that Portland is in a "talent acquisition phase" and that we don't have the talent on the roster to compete. It's one of the interesting storylines this season because while Joe is saying we need more talent, Chauncey is saying we should compete for the playoffs right now. But this Portland F.O. is built to evaluate talent, find diamonds in the rough, and take advantage of draft picks, and I'd be SHOCKED if Cronin & co. blew their chances in a generationally great draft in order to get spanked by Denver in Round 1.
What you're saying is that you want this team to take another 5 years to go from worst on year 4 to first in year 5 through the draft. That simply doesn't happen. Even the best teams go from sneaking into the playoffs to working their way to the finals. They build through a combination of drafting, smart trades, and good free agent signings. Currently this front office has only shown that it knows how to lose, and given the talent that this team has, even right now as we speak, that isn't acceptable by any blazers fan except you. If Cronin can't put together a playoff team in 2 years, this fan base will not be happy, and while you'll be here saying "I told you so" the reality is that it absolutely should not take 5 years for the core of this team to make it into the playoffs.
User avatar
Duck07
All-American
Posts: 15983
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:36 am
Location: Parts Unknown

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by Duck07 »

Phalanx wrote: Fri Jun 28, 2024 2:39 pm I don't know about competing (if we mean contending), but with the right coaching and culture, this is a playoff team now, except probably at point guard. It isn't hard to make the playoffs in the NBA. Half the teams that don't make it were tanking anyway. I guess you could keep tanking year after year, trading away veterans and stocking up draft picks like the Sixers did all those years, but the Blazers are moving into year 4 of the rebuild. Probably time to swing away and see what we have. Anyway, Cronin's moves aren't the ones a perpetual rebuilder would do. Why trade so many draft picks for an up-and-coming small forward unless you plan to utilize him? There are stages of a rebuild: stockpiling draft picks is one stage, and trading them for ready talent is a later one.

It looks to me, based on the moves made over the past year, that Cronin wants to win soon. Maybe another year to become a team, or maybe they can even get there by the end of this season.

PG Henderson, Banton
SG Simons, Sharpe
SF Avdija, Thybulle, Camara
PF Grant, Walker
C Ayton, Clingan, Williams

If healthy, this is a decent team. Just need some time to learn to play together.
I think the best lineup for tanking/development is to have Simons be the 6th man off the bench which should also give him the green light to score as much as possible on the 2nd unit. With a rise from Scoot and Shae it could also be the best chance at winning too but thankfully Chauncey is still around to ensure a natural lottery pick.

If I was the HC of that team, I would want to trade Grant ASAP as a means of giving the remaining starting group more clearly defined roles so that Ayton continues to be the #1 option to either blossom or increase his trade value followed by Sharpe and Avdija. I think there's a world in which the Scoot-Simons-Sharpe trio can work long-term, but it means Simons accepts that 6th man role as the Combo Guard, Scoot earns the PG spot and Sharpe develops into a 18ppg+ 2-way player.

Henderson, Simons
Sharpe, Thybulle
Avdija, Camara
Grant, Walker
Ayton, Clingan
Image
User avatar
pezsez1
All Pac-12
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:30 pm
Location: RIP CITY

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by pezsez1 »

Even the best teams go from sneaking into the playoffs to working their way to the finals. They build through a combination of drafting, smart trades, and good free agent signings.
Eventually the Blazers will do this, but certainly not this year and probably not for a couple more after. Portland's roster isn't yet complete, our scoring is inconsistent, our "future stars" are babies, and the Western Conference is loaded. I mean you do realize there's the possibility that none of these guys pan out and it takes us a hell of a lot longer to get back to the playoffs, right? But it's not really fun to think about that, and we're all fans, so I'm with you on hoping for the best. ;)
Currently this front office has only shown that it knows how to lose, and given the talent that this team has, even right now as we speak, that isn't acceptable by any blazers fan except you.


Ask Phalanx how much I LOVE this front office and how much I approve of Joe Cronin's plans so far. :lol: Congrats though on being even more critical of the F.O. than I am.

Joe Cronin could have kept Lillard, made an Olshey-esque trade, and we could have just rolled with a playoff-capable team and I honestly probably would have been fine with that just because I loved cheering for Dame Time. But I'm equally on board with this rebuild and a fresh start. But that was ALWAYS going to mean that we'd lose a ton of games and enter into a bleak few years (at least). I knew this. Most fans knew this. I guarantee you most of the Blazers players, coaches and staffers knew this. This is what happens when you throw a bunch of babies onto an NBA roster with few veterans and not a lot of scoring or balance.

As critical of the F.O. as I've been, I think anyone who doesn't see what they've been doing since the Dame trade is blinded by something.
If Cronin can't put together a playoff team in 2 years, this fan base will not be happy, and while you'll be here saying "I told you so" the reality is that it absolutely should not take 5 years for the core of this team to make it into the playoffs.
This isn't summer camp and I couldn't care less whether fans are happy. What I want is for the Blazers to do this rebuild correctly. We traded the franchise star and committed to starting new, and in one year from now is a generationally stellar draft filled with exactly the kinds of players we need. Let's do this right. Let's trade our remaining vets, load up on more assets, lose a ton of games, get a nice draft pick, grab one more stud wing, let Cronin cook up another trade or two, and THEN let's see what happens. To want anything else right now is fan malpractice.

The team won't be sold and moved to another city. Just chill and enjoy watching the youngs.
Willie Taggart is a dick.
User avatar
Boom
All Pac-12
Posts: 5680
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:32 pm
GM: Houston Rockets

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by Boom »

Blazers and maybe the Jazz are the only teams tanking in the West.
User avatar
Phalanx
Senior
Posts: 3937
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:50 pm

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by Phalanx »

I don't think we know who is tanking in the West, including the Blazers.

I like the idea of Simons coming off the bench for a scoring punch, but that assumes Sharpe is starter-worthy.
buckmarkduck
All-American
Posts: 10609
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:22 am
Contact:

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by buckmarkduck »

How many years do we need to tank before being competitive? This is nuts. We have gone from being one of the most consistent playoff franchises to being the Cleveland Browns of the NBA. We suck at ranking. So far we ranked the last two years and have basically zero to show for it. Scoot looks like he could very easily be a bust, and this year we landed a big who hopefully can stay healthy and play some D. At this rate we will have the 5th pick next year and land a solid 4th man who needs a super star.
squintsdd
Sophomore
Posts: 1582
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:39 am

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by squintsdd »

buckmarkduck wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:10 pm How many years do we need to tank before being competitive? This is nuts. We have gone from being one of the most consistent playoff franchises to being the Cleveland Browns of the NBA. We suck at ranking. So far we ranked the last two years and have basically zero to show for it. Scoot looks like he could very easily be a bust, and this year we landed a big who hopefully can stay healthy and play some D. At this rate we will have the 5th pick next year and land a solid 4th man who needs a super star.
Honestly, I'm glad. I'm not a fan of tanking. No team that blatantly tanks should ever get a top 3 pick.
droop10
Five Star Recruit
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:07 am

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by droop10 »

squintsdd wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:53 pm
buckmarkduck wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:10 pm How many years do we need to tank before being competitive? This is nuts. We have gone from being one of the most consistent playoff franchises to being the Cleveland Browns of the NBA. We suck at ranking. So far we ranked the last two years and have basically zero to show for it. Scoot looks like he could very easily be a bust, and this year we landed a big who hopefully can stay healthy and play some D. At this rate we will have the 5th pick next year and land a solid 4th man who needs a super star.
Honestly, I'm glad. I'm not a fan of tanking. No team that blatantly tanks should ever get a top 3 pick.
In fairness, it’s not like they are avoiding signing good players to tank. Free agents don’t want to come to Portland, so the only way they’ll ever be competitive is to luck out in the draft, and even then they bottomed out in one of the worst drafts of all time. I guess they could sign some above average guys and be incrementally better, but they wouldn’t sniff the playoffs in the west anyway, so what would be the point. Sure they benched some guys at the end of the season to lose a few more games, so there’s a little bit of tank, but it’s the only way they’ll be able to acquire talent, so it kind of forces their hand to go that route.
alxtw
Five Star Recruit
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:46 pm

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by alxtw »

droop10 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:24 pm
squintsdd wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:53 pm
buckmarkduck wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:10 pm How many years do we need to tank before being competitive? This is nuts. We have gone from being one of the most consistent playoff franchises to being the Cleveland Browns of the NBA. We suck at ranking. So far we ranked the last two years and have basically zero to show for it. Scoot looks like he could very easily be a bust, and this year we landed a big who hopefully can stay healthy and play some D. At this rate we will have the 5th pick next year and land a solid 4th man who needs a super star.
Honestly, I'm glad. I'm not a fan of tanking. No team that blatantly tanks should ever get a top 3 pick.
In fairness, it’s not like they are avoiding signing good players to tank. Free agents don’t want to come to Portland, so the only way they’ll ever be competitive is to luck out in the draft, and even then they bottomed out in one of the worst drafts of all time. I guess they could sign some above average guys and be incrementally better, but they wouldn’t sniff the playoffs in the west anyway, so what would be the point. Sure they benched some guys at the end of the season to lose a few more games, so there’s a little bit of tank, but it’s the only way they’ll be able to acquire talent, so it kind of forces their hand to go that route.
Exactly! We're like a Minnesota or Milwaukee before they drafted their superstar.
thomas time
Senior
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by thomas time »

The west is so loaded that even if the blazers tried and got to 500, which would be highly unlikely, they still would be near the bottom of the west. So might as well tank one more year in a better draft next year and hope to get lucky. They fell in the lottery, then went up, and then down in the lottery the last three years, so hopefully we continue the every other year and move up one more time.
squintsdd
Sophomore
Posts: 1582
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:39 am

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by squintsdd »

droop10 wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:24 pm
squintsdd wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:53 pm
buckmarkduck wrote: Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:10 pm How many years do we need to tank before being competitive? This is nuts. We have gone from being one of the most consistent playoff franchises to being the Cleveland Browns of the NBA. We suck at ranking. So far we ranked the last two years and have basically zero to show for it. Scoot looks like he could very easily be a bust, and this year we landed a big who hopefully can stay healthy and play some D. At this rate we will have the 5th pick next year and land a solid 4th man who needs a super star.
Honestly, I'm glad. I'm not a fan of tanking. No team that blatantly tanks should ever get a top 3 pick.
In fairness, it’s not like they are avoiding signing good players to tank. Free agents don’t want to come to Portland, so the only way they’ll ever be competitive is to luck out in the draft, and even then they bottomed out in one of the worst drafts of all time. I guess they could sign some above average guys and be incrementally better, but they wouldn’t sniff the playoffs in the west anyway, so what would be the point. Sure they benched some guys at the end of the season to lose a few more games, so there’s a little bit of tank, but it’s the only way they’ll be able to acquire talent, so it kind of forces their hand to go that route.
You're not wrong, but it's hard to bring in top level free agents when they're paying average talent above average salaries. It's been a problem in the Portland front office for years, regardless of whose been in it. Being constantly near the tax threshold with average talent makes it hard to pay star players the same that other teams can offer. With a weak draft, and not much star talent in free agency, this off-season has been a little different, so it's pretty excusable that Portland was quiet in free agency. I'm still gonna hate the fact that they're going to tank again this upcoming season. As so many players point out, the NBA is a business. Any business that intentionally puts out a terrible product, or allow its employees to do so, should go under.
droop10
Five Star Recruit
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:07 am

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by droop10 »

squintsdd wrote: Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:44 am You're not wrong, but it's hard to bring in top level free agents when they're paying average talent above average salaries. It's been a problem in the Portland front office for years, regardless of whose been in it. Being constantly near the tax threshold with average talent makes it hard to pay star players the same that other teams can offer. With a weak draft, and not much star talent in free agency, this off-season has been a little different, so it's pretty excusable that Portland was quiet in free agency. I'm still gonna hate the fact that they're going to tank again this upcoming season. As so many players point out, the NBA is a business. Any business that intentionally puts out a terrible product, or allow its employees to do so, should go under.
I get what you're saying, but I don't recall the last time a top level free agent even considered Portland. I don't think salaries have ever prevented them from bringing in a top level talent. With the player empowerment now in the NBA, the top level talent also essentially dictates where they are being traded to when they request a trade, as well. So, I'm not certain it prevented them from trading for someone either. They also have to pay average talent above average salaries to keep them in Portland or get them to go there. It's just one of the more undesirable locations in the NBA. Top level talent with either sign the max with their current team, or move to a desirable location like Miami, LA, etc.

This was the gamble they took trading away Lillard. They weren't going to championship contenders regardless so there's certainly an argument to be made for trading him, but now they're in a spot where they have no stars and have accumulated draft picks just to have more shots at hopefully landing a guy, and really in today's NBA, you basically need 2 stars to be legitimately competitive. So, it could take a couple years, or this could be a decade plus of futility. It's all just a matter of whether the lottery ball falls their way, or they luck into a generational star with a later pick. If they're lucky, Scoot and Sharpe take huge leaps in the next couple of years, as that's probably their best chance at any relevancy.
User avatar
pezsez1
All Pac-12
Posts: 5685
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:30 pm
Location: RIP CITY

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by pezsez1 »

Agree with everything you said, Droop.

I will say that although FAs have never come to Portland, maybe that might change somewhat with the new CBA effectively limiting the number of max contracts that can fit on single teams. Maybe that opens the door somewhat for Portland to land a star who can't get paid as much elsewhere. Or maybe that just makes it easier to keep our guys over time. We'll have to see how that shakes out over time.
Willie Taggart is a dick.
User avatar
StevensTechU
All Pac-12
Posts: 5416
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:25 am
Location: Hoboken, NJ

Re: Blazers 2023-2024 Thread

Post by StevensTechU »

Following the summer league team, I really wish Scoot was playing. The more competitive situations you get for him, the better. He's younger than Donovan Clingan, so it also makes sense to start building their chemistry.

Other thoughts are that I think Kris Murray doesn't have NBA ability, and neither does Rupert.

Clingan looks OK. Box score doesn't look great but he's showing flashes.
Post Reply