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Is this even new though? When I was in college we would change signs for our coverage sometimes weekly. Stealing signs has been going on since the first coach made a sign

Phalanx wrote:

StevensTechU wrote:

bellsduck wrote:Surprised so many people are for cheating here.

To be honest, it's sort of a weird proxy of what everyone's more compass/general perspective on cheating is. Like, I could probably tell you who is more likely to go back to the store and let them know they forgot to pay for something better than I could have before this thread started. Probably.

Instead of this inane attempt to make some kind of moral equivalency, I'm really just asking for someone to explain the issue better from their perspective, given that multiple people here want to crucify Harbaugh. Teams get footage of other teams' plays all the time - in fact you are considered a bad coach if you don't know the other team's plays backwards and forwards before the game starts. So how is this different? I don't have an issue with stealing signs in general, as long as someone 'cracks the code' honestly. Not sure how many here actually played sports, but it's pretty ingrained in the game. I remember in baseball having to change signs all the time to ensure that they wouldn't get stolen. If somebody was using a strategically-placed camera DURING the game, that would be one thing, but signs from past games taken from the stands seems like fair game. Unless there is an express rule about it, in which case everyone's agreement to follow that rule would constitute grounds for accusations of cheating.

There is a rule against it. That's why this is an issue. There are multiple NCAA rules they broke. 1) You aren't able to scout in person, due to not all schools having the resources to do it. 2) You can't record signals given by opposing teams. At least one opposing school is providing evidence of the person sitting in the seats purchased by Stalions recording the signals throughout the game on their phones.

The point gets made that they likely have video available already that would have the signs. If that was the case, then what benefit is Michigan gaining by sending people to the games? I get people can make points about needing to change signals and all that jazz. My point is if you are knowingly breaking the rule, then you deserve whatever punishment comes your way. They really just need to figure out the helmet communication issue.

buckmarkduck wrote:Is this even new though? When I was in college we would change signs for our coverage sometimes weekly. Stealing signs has been going on since the first coach made a sign

Seriously, the fact that a coach is even making an esoteric sign is begging for it to be stolen. The pearl-clutching in this thread makes me feel like people didn't play sports.

If they made a rule about scouting due to lack of resources, that seems pretty ridiculous coming from the Big 10, the richest conference in college football. Maybe it needs to be revisited. There is nothing inherently morally wrong with attending another team's games to see what they do. If everyone agreed to follow that rule though, then Harbaugh is breaking trust with the other schools.

Good lord. Do people actually read the links provided? There is some confusion amongst people on this message board about whether rules were actually broken? Why in the world would this be a big story if no rules were broken? This seems like pretty obvious stuff.

NCAA rulebook: "Any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel is prohibited."

It is prohibited to send representatives to stadiums of teams on your schedule that season in general, let alone make these recordings.

Once again, Michigan is paying people to make prohibited recordings during games that focus directly on the coaches as they signal in plays. They then study these prohibited recordings and decipher which plays are run depending on the signal. This information is then used against the future opponent. The "low-level staffer" that purchased the seats at numerous opponent stadiums across the country, from which these recordings were made, brags on his social media profiles about being able to determine what the opponent is going to do. There are literally videos of this guy standing directly next to the Michigan Defensive Coordinator during games. He is staring intently across the field at the opposing coaches as they signal in plays. He is seen yelling/speaking instructions to the Michigan Defensive Coordinator, at which point DC signals in the defensive call. The scope and audacity of this flagrant cheating could not be more clear. Obviously, Michigan feels this provides a worthwhile advantage that can't be replicated through permissible ways. Why the f**k else would they be going through all this trouble to cheat...for fun?

There have been rumors of Harbaugh/Michigan cheating for years. It has caught up with them, just like it caught up with Bill Belichick back in 2007, when his corrupt organization was caught capturing hand signals on video, in direct violation of rules. After admitting their wrongdoing, Belichick was fined $500,000, the organization was fined $250,000 and they had to forfeit a first round pick. At least they admitted to the wrongdoing. Harbaugh is not only a repeat offender when it comes to cheating, but he continually lies to the investigators (and the public) at every opportunity. This scumbag needs to be shown the door.

Phalanx wrote:

buckmarkduck wrote:Is this even new though? When I was in college we would change signs for our coverage sometimes weekly. Stealing signs has been going on since the first coach made a sign

Seriously, the fact that a coach is even making an esoteric sign is begging for it to be stolen. The pearl-clutching in this thread makes me feel like people didn't play sports.

If they made a rule about scouting due to lack of resources, that seems pretty ridiculous coming from the Big 10, the richest conference in college football. Maybe it needs to be revisited. There is nothing inherently morally wrong with attending another team's games to see what they do. If everyone agreed to follow that rule though, then Harbaugh is breaking trust with the other schools.

It's an NCAA rule, not a B1G rule. Honestly, the scouting in game isn't the biggest issue as you get the tape and scouting in game isn't providing much advantage at that point, just another rule that they broke. The big one is recording opposing team's signals. It's already limited how much time can be spent coaching these kids every week. Having to teach new signs on top of that every single week just makes it all the more difficult. If a team can crack the signs during the game, that's one thing. If they are able to do so by publicly available tape, then so be it. They were clearly gaining an advantage by sending someone out to the games to film the sidelines though, or they wouldn't have been doing it.

If a team can crack the signs during the game, that's one thing. If they are able to do so by publicly available tape, then so be it. They were clearly gaining an advantage by sending someone out to the games to film the sidelines though, or they wouldn't have been doing it.

/thread.

Feelings about which methods of sign stealing should be allowed aren't relevant. All that matters here is that Michigan chose to break rules. Consequences should follow.

gogreen55 wrote:Good lord. Do people actually read the links provided? There is some confusion amongst people on this message board about whether rules were actually broken? Why in the world would this be a big story if no rules were broken? This seems like pretty obvious stuff.

NCAA rulebook: "Any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel is prohibited."

It is prohibited to send representatives to stadiums of teams on your schedule that season in general, let alone make these recordings.

Once again, Michigan is paying people to make prohibited recordings during games that focus directly on the coaches as they signal in plays. They then study these prohibited recordings and decipher which plays are run depending on the signal. This information is then used against the future opponent. The "low-level staffer" that purchased the seats at numerous opponent stadiums across the country, from which these recordings were made, brags on his social media profiles about being able to determine what the opponent is going to do. There are literally videos of this guy standing directly next to the Michigan Defensive Coordinator during games. He is staring intently across the field at the opposing coaches as they signal in plays. He is seen yelling/speaking instructions to the Michigan Defensive Coordinator, at which point DC signals in the defensive call. The scope and audacity of this flagrant cheating could not be more clear. Obviously, Michigan feels this provides a worthwhile advantage that can't be replicated through permissible ways. Why the f**k else would they be going through all this trouble to cheat...for fun?

There have been rumors of Harbaugh/Michigan cheating for years. It has caught up with them, just like it caught up with Bill Belichick back in 2007, when his corrupt organization was caught capturing hand signals on video, in direct violation of rules. After admitting their wrongdoing, Belichick was fined $500,000, the organization was fined $250,000 and they had to forfeit a first round pick. At least they admitted to the wrongdoing. Harbaugh is not only a repeat offender when it comes to cheating, but he continually lies to the investigators (and the public) at every opportunity. This scumbag needs to be shown the door.

What if there is publicly available film that shows the signs of the opposing team (i.e. broadcast, univsierty cameras, or media)?

As a separate question, should it be illegal to study the signs of the opposing team?

Those are the more interesting questions that cuts to the issue @ hand.

It's not looking good for Michigan with every new leak that comes out.

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Michigan may have uncovered the whole scouting scheme themselves while investigating their former coach for improper computer usage.

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gogreen55 wrote:Good lord. Do people actually read the links provided? There is some confusion amongst people on this message board about whether rules were actually broken? Why in the world would this be a big story if no rules were broken? This seems like pretty obvious stuff.

NCAA rulebook: "Any attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel is prohibited."

It is prohibited to send representatives to stadiums of teams on your schedule that season in general, let alone make these recordings.

Once again, Michigan is paying people to make prohibited recordings during games that focus directly on the coaches as they signal in plays. They then study these prohibited recordings and decipher which plays are run depending on the signal. This information is then used against the future opponent. The "low-level staffer" that purchased the seats at numerous opponent stadiums across the country, from which these recordings were made, brags on his social media profiles about being able to determine what the opponent is going to do. There are literally videos of this guy standing directly next to the Michigan Defensive Coordinator during games. He is staring intently across the field at the opposing coaches as they signal in plays. He is seen yelling/speaking instructions to the Michigan Defensive Coordinator, at which point DC signals in the defensive call. The scope and audacity of this flagrant cheating could not be more clear. Obviously, Michigan feels this provides a worthwhile advantage that can't be replicated through permissible ways. Why the f**k else would they be going through all this trouble to cheat...for fun?

There have been rumors of Harbaugh/Michigan cheating for years. It has caught up with them, just like it caught up with Bill Belichick back in 2007, when his corrupt organization was caught capturing hand signals on video, in direct violation of rules. After admitting their wrongdoing, Belichick was fined $500,000, the organization was fined $250,000 and they had to forfeit a first round pick. At least they admitted to the wrongdoing. Harbaugh is not only a repeat offender when it comes to cheating, but he continually lies to the investigators (and the public) at every opportunity. This scumbag needs to be shown the door.

I know rb doesn’t show much sideline stuff, but I’m curious what the all 22 shows. Is there more sideline shots? If so, you could get the same info there.

I just made some popcorn, this rabbit hole runs deep.

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Phalanx wrote:

StevensTechU wrote:

bellsduck wrote:Surprised so many people are for cheating here.

To be honest, it's sort of a weird proxy of what everyone's more compass/general perspective on cheating is. Like, I could probably tell you who is more likely to go back to the store and let them know they forgot to pay for something better than I could have before this thread started. Probably.

Instead of this inane attempt to make some kind of moral equivalency, I'm really just asking for someone to explain the issue better from their perspective, given that multiple people here want to crucify Harbaugh. Teams get footage of other teams' plays all the time - in fact you are considered a bad coach if you don't know the other team's plays backwards and forwards before the game starts. So how is this different? I don't have an issue with stealing signs in general, as long as someone 'cracks the code' honestly. Not sure how many here actually played sports, but it's pretty ingrained in the game. I remember in baseball having to change signs all the time to ensure that they wouldn't get stolen. If somebody was using a strategically-placed camera DURING the game, that would be one thing, but signs from past games taken from the stands seems like fair game. Unless there is an express rule about it, in which case everyone's agreement to follow that rule would constitute grounds for accusations of cheating.

It's an issue of parity in a sport where some are haves, and most others are have-nots. Be really interesting when they reveal the budget dollar amount Mich spent.

It is amazing how this scandal just makes Michigan look worse and worse by the day. Now we discover this...

If you thought the Michigan sign-stealing scandal couldn't get any wilder, think again. Ross Dellenger of Yahoo Sports reports that TCU was made aware of Michigan's "elaborate" sign-stealing scheme before the two teams faced off in the College Football Playoff.

Sonny Dykes and Co., as a result, changed their offensive and defensive signals before the playoff. The Horned Frogs still used their old signs, which they coined "dummy" signs, to trick the Michigan sideline. TCU players were aware that the "dummy" signals made were old and not to be paid attention to.

TCU, of course, beat Michigan 51-45 to advance to the College Football Playoff National Championship. The most points the 2022 Michigan defense allowed prior to that game was 27 vs. Maryland.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/ ... r-AA1iUQLr

In light of this, I'm sure it is still just a wild coincidence that the heavily favored Wolverines, with their vaunted defense, gave up nearly twice as many points to TCU as they did to any other team the entire season. Fortunately, TCU had 15 postseason practices to prepare for the rampant cheating. Bowl games provide a team extra time to prepare for this stuff, and Michigan still hasn't won a bowl game under Harbaugh since 2015.



It is an embarrassment if this con man steps foot on the sideline again this season. You can't rely on the NCAA to handle it. It takes these halfwits a couple months to figure out 2+2 = 4. If the school has any integrity, they can suspend Harbaugh themselves. If they won't handle it, then the B1G commissioner (if he has any balls and wants to pretend to care about integrity) should suspend Harbaugh immediately. He should also announce that Michigan won't be allowed to participate in the conference championship game. For anyone that has a functioning brain and wants to spend a day looking at the evidence, the "lack of institutional control" is irrefutable already. You don't need to spend years before you take action, looking for photos of Harbaugh sitting by the fire with Stalions on Thanksgiving, reading the "Michigan Manifesto" and reviewing illegally obtained closeups of Ryan Day signaling in plays. You don't get to pretend that ol' Jim has no idea what this "low-level staffer" is doing, as he is literally walking around with him on the sidelines and telling the coordinators which plays to call. The "lack of institutional control" hits Jimbo either way, even if some mind-numbing morons actually believe anything he says.

University of Michigan = Unabomber, Jim Harbaugh, Connor "Michigan Manifesto" Stalions

True examples of the "Michigan man." Hail! to the victors valiant...

PS: Never forget, University of Washington = Ted Bundy

So they broke the rules. That being said, the rules are nonsensical.

dd10snoop28 wrote:So they broke the rules. That being said, the rules are nonsensical.

It's deceitful and violates any basic notion of Sportsmanship, that isn't nonsensical.