Why are people destroying cities?

[Phalanx]

Shouting "you're wrong" as you slam the door never convinces anyone. If you disagree with someone either say I can't agree with you or show them why they are wrong with facts, not opinion. Everyone can be right or wrong but if you can't deal with someone else's opinion leave if you must but do so with a reasonable attitude.

Quietduck

Agreed. It's anyone's right to leave, but you aren't convincing anyone of your perspective by getting triggered and taking your ball and going home. I have been reading this thread with interest, having some sympathy for both sides of the argument (I had no idea about Floyd's criminal past, for instance). I have no sympathy for someone who just wants to virtue signal on his way out the door without even taking the time to explain why.

[Duck07]

The things that stand out to me on this:

1-The issue of George Floyd has nothing to do with his character. Bringing up his past, his toxicology results and the like is not relevant. He could be the Devil Incarnate and that still isn't how the accused are supposed to be treated in this country. Period. You don't treat people like that.

2-The protestors and the rioters are 2 different groups with very little overlap. The organized chaos from the start is being orchestrated by any number of groups that just want to see chaos. Calling some of them anarchists though is quite rich when their schemes are rife with organization, but's that semantics. Sure, some of it is that people have been fed up of being stuck inside or else they're considered criminals but most of the violence is Antifa types.

3-The mass media continues to try and warp the lens through which they talk about these issues that it should make more people start to wake up to all of this bs. We're all being taken for fools.

[FlDuckFan]

I am a bit surprised by how civil this thread has been compared to other boards.

I see a whole lot more peaceful protests than riots and looting. I wouldn't condemn an entire movement because of a few bad apples though.

[Quietduck]

Unfortunately, every society has within it wolves and Jackels that thrive on the chaos and pulled down any survivors. Lenin and the most rest of the leaders of the Russian revolution were idealists that had a vision. Within a short time, they were gone and Stalin was in power and the carrion eaters feasted. While the names have changed the result is still a power base that is almost as exclusive and rich as the "Tsar's" that went before them. We almost fell the same way when Washington was offered total power. I don't know if it was luck or divine provenance but it didn't happen here like it almost always does.

There are honest protesters with dreams and ideals in the crowds but the jackals and wolves are howling in their midst just waiting for the feast. Both the police and the protesters have to clear them out or we will have another civil war on our hands. I realize both want to see the other as the problem as it's easier that way, but unless they see the real danger things are just going to get worse.

[woundedknees]

What is being fought is the experience black people have of being routinely mistreated by police. The vast majority of black people say that is their experience. I, for one, think I should listen to them.

Listening is a positive response, but accepting the story of anyone verbatim can be a slippery slope.

Indeed, I have far more issue with some in the media and so-called leaders who use this as a platform to increase their personal power and wealth by manipulating the "facts" and the masses to suit their own, private narrative.

I know that proper training does not involve many of the techniques employed by the LEO's seen in many of the videos used as evidence of police brutality. Much of what I have seen over the years, such as kneeling on the neck of a person of interest to subdue him, is far outside the safety guidelines taught at most agencies.

By the same token, for the safety of both the suspect and bystanders, as well as officers involved, it behooves other onsite individuals to assist in "restraining" that individual quickly. That's what handcuffs are for. Get things under control quickly, with as little harm to anyone as possible.

The guys watching are as responsible as the perpetrator, in a situation like this.

It certainly doesn't mean all law enforcement behaves in a similar manner.

[UOducksTK1]

In 2019, 9 unarmed black men were killed by police, 3 of those were not fleeing. One had a firearm in his vehicle that he fled. George Floyd was unjustly killed and Chauvin has been and should be charged. My opinion, but it’s intellectually dishonest to say that “they’re killing all of us”. 7500 African Americans were murdered in 2019 by African Americans. Cops are killed by African Americans at 18x the rate of unarmed black men being killed by cops.

Again, just my opinion, but we are making the exception out to be the rule. Chauvin was justly charged, what are we truly fighting at this point.

Right, if this was truly a genocide, we would be seeing thousands of these cases. Good post.

[UOducksTK1]

This is an extremely troubling and ignorant post. I have been a member of this forum for a long, long time, but after this I can longer post here. Educate yourself, TK.

Bye, everyone.

It's an off-topic thread, and I'm here to learn. I never voice my political beliefs anywhere else on the forum. I just don't understand the narrative on George Floyd, and I don't see statistics justifying destroying cities, killing people, destroying small businesses, etc.

So if that's too much for you, then I guess do what you got to do.

[UOducksTK1]

What is being fought is the experience black people have of being routinely mistreated by police. The vast majority of black people say that is their experience. I, for one, think I should listen to them.

I'm all for listening. Which is one of the reasons I actually posted the thread. I feel like national media creates a narrative and plays into emotions without looking at data or facts.

So it's very possible that their experience and voice has been distorted by the media. You can't deny the media has a strong sway. Additionally, there are many black people who do not buy into this narrative either.

Not to discredit their voice, but if data doesn't support the argument, then it holds less weight. Not to say it's not entirely true, but it certainly doesn't justify the reaction we are seeing. Not at all.

[UOducksTK1]

Shouting "you're wrong" as you slam the door never convinces anyone. If you disagree with someone either say I can't agree with you or show them why they are wrong with facts, not opinion. Everyone can be right or wrong but if you can't deal with someone else's opinion leave if you must but do so with a reasonable attitude.

Quietduck

Thanks for saying this.

[UOducksTK1]

I am a bit surprised by how civil this thread has been compared to other boards.

I see a whole lot more peaceful protests than riots and looting. I wouldn't condemn an entire movement because of a few bad apples though.

I'm actually surprised more people didn't tell me off. Lol because I know my opinion isn't popular. I was just googling about Floyd and police stuff and just found interesting stats. And I see cities with burning buildings and am trying to see if this lines up with truth.

It's also funny Iran and China are calling us out on the George Floyd situation when Iran's government is so oppressive evil. Half my mom's family still lives in Iran, and the way they treat other religions is so violent and disgusting. And also, the way they treat women should have feminists freaking out. There is undeniable injustice there.

[UOducksTK1]

I'm not writing to change your mind, TK, but I'll write in order for those reading this thread to not think this is a one-sided issue where protestors are being illogical. If you'd like to respond directly to me, go for it, but unless I think you bring up something that I need to specifically respond to, it'll probably go unanswered.

You don't seem to be arguing that there is widespread police brutality / overuse of force, so we can start there.

In the age of camera phones and body cams, we've all seen a lot of disturbing videos (if we're willing to watch them). Many black victims, many white, many brown. Chris Rock made the joke that if you're United Airlines and most of your pilots are good but there are a few bad apples who fly into mountains, that's not acceptable, and that policing should be viewed the same way. You don't score points for getting it 'mostly' right. What we see by the sheer number of videos is that there are quite a few bad apples, spread out across the country. I've personally watched the videos of police shooting a 20-something exterminator who was crawling on the ground per the cop's order because the cop was jumpy, watched a cop choke two men literally to death despite them not presenting any threat, and read about cops shooting a man to death who was trying to break up a fight (that last one here in Portland). That's just a tiny sample, and those that have been documented. So it's clear to me that police overuse deadly force, and that is something that, on its own, warrants reform, and failing that, warrants public backlash. Cops shouldn't be killing people who pose no threat and doing so is the ultimate violation of our personal freedoms. Period.

Lets say that police brutality is agnostic to color, meaning police do not intentionally assault or shoot a person of color intentionally any more than they shoot or assault caucasion people. What we do know is that police interact with people of color, specifically blacks, much more than they do white people. They patrol their neighborhoods more, they are more likely to stop them for questioning, and more likely to say they fit the description of a 'suspect in the area.' Now, if all interactions, white or black, have the same chance of ending in police brutality, then just on the simple fact that blacks are more likely to interact with police, you can see how blacks are more likely to be on the receiving end of police brutality. This says nothing of intention and speaks only to logic, but you see now how police brutality is an issue of race and racism.

Now lets go one step further. Police are able to use a lot of discretion in enforcing the law, so even though the same laws apply to everyone, application is malleable. I have two brothers who were active duty in the military for over a decade each. Despite routinely driving over the speed limit, and sometimes getting caught, neither ever received a speeding ticket. As members of the military, often being pulled over by former members of the military, the willingness to let things slide is greater. The reason is that when we see someone in a particular light, we're more likely to look for the good in them and be willing to acknowledge an incident as an isolated mistake. That same sense of perspective can work the opposite way. If we read about how blacks make up a fraction of the population but are responsible for half the murders in the country, and we don't have some more impactful experience to overwrite that kind of narrative in our mind, then when an incident occurs involving a black person, that person is more likely to be punished to the full extent of the law. The officer - black or white or other - is more likely to consider that person the rule, not the exception like they do my military brothers. We see this phenomena statistically in the courtroom - blacks are given longer sentences for the same crimes as whites. You can argue with me but you can't argue with numbers.

Part of your suggestion is that if a black cop shoots a black victim, it can't be racism. Why can't it? Statistically speaking, it's been shown that black restaurant-goers tip black servers less than they tip white servers. Is that not racism? Is it more likely to say that white servers must be better than black servers? Is it not more believable that the black cop is affected by knowledge of the same statistics - that blacks are more likely to commit murder than whites - and reacts in a similar way as the white cops?

If we resolve the issue of police brutality against the black community, we're likely to resolve the issue of police brutality as a whole. I don't see where the issue is there. Perhaps one day in a distant future, we'll be talking about under-policing, but that is most definitely not where we are today.

This is a good response and has me thinking a lot (especially the bold part) Thanks!

[UOducksTK1]

The things that stand out to me on this:

1-The issue of George Floyd has nothing to do with his character. Bringing up his past, his toxicology results and the like is not relevant. He could be the Devil Incarnate and that still isn't how the accused are supposed to be treated in this country. Period. You don't treat people like that.

2-The protestors and the rioters are 2 different groups with very little overlap. The organized chaos from the start is being orchestrated by any number of groups that just want to see chaos. Calling some of them anarchists though is quite rich when their schemes are rife with organization, but's that semantics. Sure, some of it is that people have been fed up of being stuck inside or else they're considered criminals but most of the violence is Antifa types.

3-The mass media continues to try and warp the lens through which they talk about these issues that it should make more people start to wake up to all of this bs. We're all being taken for fools.

I agree with this. So because I'm half white and half Persian, am I racist against blacks? Or if I don't post the black Tuesday picture, am I also racist? I can tell you that all my Iranian family in Iran is livid at our media, and that they see the agenda and narrative being pushed. And they also say if you want true police brutality, come live there for a while. You'll get beaten and arrested as a woman for not wearing a hijab.

Not to say we shouldn't address police brutality, but to again react the way we are now (media, antifa, etc.) seems wrong.

Also for my wife's sister family that I married into that doesn't agree with all of this either. Are they wrong? What makes one black person's voice greater than the other? Or is it purely democratic where majority of blacks win? That's scary too though, because that's like 6 black wolves and 1 black sheep voting what's for dinner.

[UOducksTK1]

Also thanks for the civil responses. I want to learn more from the other side to understand better. Maybe my Iranian influence has me biased. Apologies if true.

[UOducksTK1]

I'm not writing to change your mind, TK, but I'll write in order for those reading this thread to not think this is a one-sided issue where protestors are being illogical. If you'd like to respond directly to me, go for it, but unless I think you bring up something that I need to specifically respond to, it'll probably go unanswered.

You don't seem to be arguing that there is widespread police brutality / overuse of force, so we can start there.

In the age of camera phones and body cams, we've all seen a lot of disturbing videos (if we're willing to watch them). Many black victims, many white, many brown. Chris Rock made the joke that if you're United Airlines and most of your pilots are good but there are a few bad apples who fly into mountains, that's not acceptable, and that policing should be viewed the same way. You don't score points for getting it 'mostly' right. What we see by the sheer number of videos is that there are quite a few bad apples, spread out across the country. I've personally watched the videos of police shooting a 20-something exterminator who was crawling on the ground per the cop's order because the cop was jumpy, watched a cop choke two men literally to death despite them not presenting any threat, and read about cops shooting a man to death who was trying to break up a fight (that last one here in Portland). That's just a tiny sample, and those that have been documented. So it's clear to me that police overuse deadly force, and that is something that, on its own, warrants reform, and failing that, warrants public backlash. Cops shouldn't be killing people who pose no threat and doing so is the ultimate violation of our personal freedoms. Period.

Lets say that police brutality is agnostic to color, meaning police do not intentionally assault or shoot a person of color intentionally any more than they shoot or assault caucasion people. What we do know is that police interact with people of color, specifically blacks, much more than they do white people. They patrol their neighborhoods more, they are more likely to stop them for questioning, and more likely to say they fit the description of a 'suspect in the area.' Now, if all interactions, white or black, have the same chance of ending in police brutality, then just on the simple fact that blacks are more likely to interact with police, you can see how blacks are more likely to be on the receiving end of police brutality. This says nothing of intention and speaks only to logic, but you see now how police brutality is an issue of race and racism.

Now lets go one step further. Police are able to use a lot of discretion in enforcing the law, so even though the same laws apply to everyone, application is malleable. I have two brothers who were active duty in the military for over a decade each. Despite routinely driving over the speed limit, and sometimes getting caught, neither ever received a speeding ticket. As members of the military, often being pulled over by former members of the military, the willingness to let things slide is greater. The reason is that when we see someone in a particular light, we're more likely to look for the good in them and be willing to acknowledge an incident as an isolated mistake. That same sense of perspective can work the opposite way. If we read about how blacks make up a fraction of the population but are responsible for half the murders in the country, and we don't have some more impactful experience to overwrite that kind of narrative in our mind, then when an incident occurs involving a black person, that person is more likely to be punished to the full extent of the law. The officer - black or white or other - is more likely to consider that person the rule, not the exception like they do my military brothers. We see this phenomena statistically in the courtroom - blacks are given longer sentences for the same crimes as whites. You can argue with me but you can't argue with numbers.

Part of your suggestion is that if a black cop shoots a black victim, it can't be racism. Why can't it? Statistically speaking, it's been shown that black restaurant-goers tip black servers less than they tip white servers. Is that not racism? Is it more likely to say that white servers must be better than black servers? Is it not more believable that the black cop is affected by knowledge of the same statistics - that blacks are more likely to commit murder than whites - and reacts in a similar way as the white cops?

If we resolve the issue of police brutality against the black community, we're likely to resolve the issue of police brutality as a whole. I don't see where the issue is there. Perhaps one day in a distant future, we'll be talking about under-policing, but that is most definitely not where we are today.

This is a good response and has me thinking a lot (especially the bold part) Thanks!

At 2:58, more evidence suggests that more officers are hesitant against a black suspect than a white suspect. Thoughts?

[Tray Dub]

What is being fought is the experience black people have of being routinely mistreated by police. The vast majority of black people say that is their experience. I, for one, think I should listen to them.

I'm all for listening. Which is one of the reasons I actually posted the thread. I feel like national media creates a narrative and plays into emotions without looking at data or facts.

So it's very possible that their experience and voice has been distorted by the media. You can't deny the media has a strong sway. Additionally, there are many black people who do not buy into this narrative either.

Not to discredit their voice, but if data doesn't support the argument, then it holds less weight. Not to say it's not entirely true, but it certainly doesn't justify the reaction we are seeing. Not at all.

I understand not trusting media-driven narratives, but here's what you find if you actually ask black people what they think:



And sure, you're right that if the data proved their belief wrong, we have to go with the data. But the data doesn't do that. The data is complicated and murky. Any side of the debate can produce a dozen studies that say they're 100% right, and we know the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. So I don't think you can put all your faith in "the data," because the data doesn't speak in one voice – it's more of a loud jumble of signals that researchers do their best to make sense of, to varying degrees of success. That doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to it at all, just that you shouldn't expect to learn the capital-T Truth from it.

Meanwhile, you have most black people saying there's a problem, asking you to listen and to help. They would know better than us, right? So I think the rational, and the right, thing to do is to trust that there's at least something to what they're saying, and support what seems like it might fix the problem.

Doesn't mean you have to like the looting and destruction parts of the protests. It just means you shouldn't focus 100% (or even 90%) on that part, and ignore the injustice you're being asked to notice.