Ducks Attack Message Board Forum

When there's a penalty on the defense during a play, does that wipe out the offensive ball carrier's stats? For example, if an RB runs for 20 yards and gets facemasked on the tackle, does his 20 yard run get wiped out?

Another question: if a defensive player pushes a guy out of bounds, does he get credit for a tackle?

I'm playing NCAA 09 and both these issues have come up, so I'm wondering if anybody knows the rulebook and can help me out

Come on guys. This is your big chance to show C4Q how smart you are!

Tray Dub wrote:When there's a penalty on the defense during a play, does that wipe out the offensive ball carrier's stats? For example, if an RB runs for 20 yards and gets facemasked on the tackle, does his 20 yard run get wiped out?

Another question: if a defensive player pushes a guy out of bounds, does he get credit for a tackle?

I'm playing NCAA 09 and both these issues have come up, so I'm wondering if anybody knows the rulebook and can help me out

Good questions and I will give it a go (right or wrong):
1. The key here is whether it was a live ball foul or a dead ball foul. If it was a live ball foul, i.e. facemasking during the play, the 15 yards gets added to the result of the play. Meaning the stats should stand for the ball carrier.
2. I don't believe pushing someone out of bounds represents a tackle because it is the "sideline" that actually ends the play, or stopped the ball carrier's progress. The "pushing player" may have altered the progress, but didnt actually stop it. I guess it is kind of like player A getting a solid push on a QB who then proceeds to take a few steps toward another defender, player B, who grasps him and brings him down for a sack. Player A gave the push to alter the play, but player b actually ended the play with the sack. Now what I am not sure of, is if the ball carrier is in the grasp of a defender when they both step out....might count as a tackle, but I am not sure it does even then as the player is not tackled technically, he is just ruled out of bounds.

Tinfoilman wrote:

Tray Dub wrote:When there's a penalty on the defense during a play, does that wipe out the offensive ball carrier's stats? For example, if an RB runs for 20 yards and gets facemasked on the tackle, does his 20 yard run get wiped out?

Another question: if a defensive player pushes a guy out of bounds, does he get credit for a tackle?

I'm playing NCAA 09 and both these issues have come up, so I'm wondering if anybody knows the rulebook and can help me out

Good questions and I will give it a go (right or wrong):
1. The key here is whether it was a live ball foul or a dead ball foul. If it was a live ball foul, i.e. facemasking during the play, the 15 yards gets added to the result of the play. Meaning the stats should stand for the ball carrier.
2. I don't believe pushing someone out of bounds represents a tackle because it is the "sideline" that actually ends the play, or stopped the ball carrier's progress. The "pushing player" may have altered the progress, but didnt accually stop it. Kind of like getting a push on a QB who takes a few steps into another defender grasp who brings him down and gets the sack. Now what I am not sure of, is if the ball carrier is in the grasp of a defender when they both step out....Not sure on that exactly.

Appreciated. My educated guesses agree with you on number two. On number one, I'm still iffy. Like what if there's an offsides, and then your ball carrier gains four yards. So you take the offsides. Does the ball carrier's four yard gain not go on the books?

Tray Dub wrote:

Tinfoilman wrote:

Tray Dub wrote:When there's a penalty on the defense during a play, does that wipe out the offensive ball carrier's stats? For example, if an RB runs for 20 yards and gets facemasked on the tackle, does his 20 yard run get wiped out?

Another question: if a defensive player pushes a guy out of bounds, does he get credit for a tackle?

Appreciated. My educated guesses agree with you on number two. On number one, I'm still iffy. Like what if there's an offsides, and then your ball carrier gains four yards. So you take the offsides. Does the ball carrier's four yard gain not go on the books?

Okay, that gets dicey because if the team accepts the offsides penality, then it is in reality as if the play never occured and it becomes a deadball foul if you will because the foul actually occured "prior" to the snap. So it becomes a re-set type of situation. They reset the play back to "before the snap" and the yards of infraction are given from the previous line of scrimmage. The ball carrier gets no credit for the 4 yard run because the play was reset (essentially never happened). On a facemask, the play is not reset so the yards are added to the result of the play. Does that makes sense? Again, these are just my thoughts.

Yeah makes total sense. That's what I would've guessed, but you explained it in a way that now I'm pretty sure. Thanks bro

Tinfoilman wrote:

Okay, that gets dicey because if the team accepts the offsides penality, then it is in reality as if the play never occured and it becomes a deadball foul if you will because the foul actually occured "prior" to the snap. So it becomes a re-set type of situation. They reset the play back to "before the snap" and the yards of infraction are given from the previous line of scrimmage. The ball carrier gets no credit for the 4 yard run because the play was reset (essentially never happened). On a facemask, the play is not reset so the yards are added to the result of the play. Does that makes sense? Again, these are just my thoughts.

But, in total calculations for the game all yardage & all penalties are tracked so even though the ball carrier may not receive credit for the yards carried, they still get added into the big picture. Isn't that correct?

MFRDuckFan wrote:

Tinfoilman wrote:

Okay, that gets dicey because if the team accepts the offsides penality, then it is in reality as if the play never occured and it becomes a deadball foul if you will because the foul actually occured "prior" to the snap. So it becomes a re-set type of situation. They reset the play back to "before the snap" and the yards of infraction are given from the previous line of scrimmage. The ball carrier gets no credit for the 4 yard run because the play was reset (essentially never happened). On a facemask, the play is not reset so the yards are added to the result of the play. Does that makes sense? Again, these are just my thoughts.

But, in total calculations for the game all yardage & all penalties are tracked so even though the ball carrier may not receive credit for the yards carried, they still get added into the big picture. Isn't that correct?

Yes all "official" yardage gains are credited. However, the 4 yards in question would not be tallied toward either the running backs yards, or the teams total offensive yardage. Nor would the carry count against the back's yards per carry..., because again, the play actually never happened for all intense and purposes. Conversly, the same would hold true on a sack following an offsides penalty. The defensive player would not be credited the sack if the penalty was accepted. Another twist. If an offensive lineman "holds" a defensive lineman on a play and a sack takes place, it would be up to the defense to accept or decline the penalty. If accepted, the infraction is marked off and the sack does not count for the player. However, if the defense declines the penalty, the ball rest at the spot of the sack and the sack does count for the player.

You are correct that penalty yardage is tallied and tracked, but is not included in the offensive yardage calculations. It is a totally seperate stat.

Tinfoilman wrote:

MFRDuckFan wrote:

Tinfoilman wrote:

Okay, that gets dicey because if the team accepts the offsides penality, then it is in reality as if the play never occured and it becomes a deadball foul if you will because the foul actually occured "prior" to the snap. So it becomes a re-set type of situation. They reset the play back to "before the snap" and the yards of infraction are given from the previous line of scrimmage. The ball carrier gets no credit for the 4 yard run because the play was reset (essentially never happened). On a facemask, the play is not reset so the yards are added to the result of the play. Does that makes sense? Again, these are just my thoughts.

But, in total calculations for the game all yardage & all penalties are tracked so even though the ball carrier may not receive credit for the yards carried, they still get added into the big picture. Isn't that correct?

Yes all "official" yardage gains are credited. However, the 4 yards in question would not be tallied toward either the running backs yards, or the teams total offensive yardage. Nor would the carry count against the back's yards per carry..., because again, the play actually never happened for all intense and purposes. Conversly, the same would hold true on a sack following an offsides penalty. The defensive player would not be credited the sack if the penalty was accepted. Another twist. If an offensive lineman "holds" a defensive lineman on a play and a sack takes place, it would be up to the defense to accept or decline the penalty. If accepted, the infraction is marked off and the sack does not count for the player. However, if the defense declines the penalty, the ball rest at the spot of the sack and the sack does count for the player.

You are correct that penalty yardage is tallied and tracked, but is not included in the offensive yardage calculations. It is a totally seperate stat.

Sounds good. Thanks.

Tinfoilman wrote: 2. I don't believe pushing someone out of bounds represents a tackle because it is the "sideline" that actually ends the play, or stopped the ball carrier's progress. The "pushing player" may have altered the progress, but didnt actually stop it. I guess it is kind of like player A getting a solid push on a QB who then proceeds to take a few steps toward another defender, player B, who grasps him and brings him down for a sack. Player A gave the push to alter the play, but player b actually ended the play with the sack. Now what I am not sure of, is if the ball carrier is in the grasp of a defender when they both step out....might count as a tackle, but I am not sure it does even then as the player is not tackled technically, he is just ruled out of bounds.

This part of your explanation isn't correct. A player is credited with a tackle if they force a ball carrier out of bounds, even if it is only a push. There isn't any difference between this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGNJox8eLpE

or a push in the stat book. They both accomplish the same thing.

Duckxing wrote:

Tinfoilman wrote: 2. I don't believe pushing someone out of bounds represents a tackle because it is the "sideline" that actually ends the play, or stopped the ball carrier's progress. The "pushing player" may have altered the progress, but didnt actually stop it. I guess it is kind of like player A getting a solid push on a QB who then proceeds to take a few steps toward another defender, player B, who grasps him and brings him down for a sack. Player A gave the push to alter the play, but player b actually ended the play with the sack. Now what I am not sure of, is if the ball carrier is in the grasp of a defender when they both step out....might count as a tackle, but I am not sure it does even then as the player is not tackled technically, he is just ruled out of bounds.

This part of your explanation isn't correct. A player is credited with a tackle if they force a ball carrier out of bounds, even if it is only a push. There isn't any difference between this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGNJox8eLpE

or a push in the stat book. They both accomplish the same thing.

Interesting. I would not have thought that. A push can sure become subjective - like the tips of a finger.... By the way, gotta love that hit by Big Mal.

Tinfoilman wrote:

Tray Dub wrote:When there's a penalty on the defense during a play, does that wipe out the offensive ball carrier's stats? For example, if an RB runs for 20 yards and gets facemasked on the tackle, does his 20 yard run get wiped out?

Another question: if a defensive player pushes a guy out of bounds, does he get credit for a tackle?

I'm playing NCAA 09 and both these issues have come up, so I'm wondering if anybody knows the rulebook and can help me out

Good questions and I will give it a go (right or wrong):
1. The key here is whether it was a live ball foul or a dead ball foul. If it was a live ball foul, i.e. facemasking during the play, the 15 yards gets added to the result of the play. Meaning the stats should stand for the ball carrier.
2. I don't believe pushing someone out of bounds represents a tackle because it is the "sideline" that actually ends the play, or stopped the ball carrier's progress. The "pushing player" may have altered the progress, but didnt actually stop it. I guess it is kind of like player A getting a solid push on a QB who then proceeds to take a few steps toward another defender, player B, who grasps him and brings him down for a sack. Player A gave the push to alter the play, but player b actually ended the play with the sack. Now what I am not sure of, is if the ball carrier is in the grasp of a defender when they both step out....might count as a tackle, but I am not sure it does even then as the player is not tackled technically, he is just ruled out of bounds.

I was going to say the same thing for number 1 and number 2 answer sounds right but I don't know for sure...

Tinfoilman wrote:

MFRDuckFan wrote:

Tinfoilman wrote:

Okay, that gets dicey because if the team accepts the offsides penality, then it is in reality as if the play never occured and it becomes a deadball foul if you will because the foul actually occured "prior" to the snap. So it becomes a re-set type of situation. They reset the play back to "before the snap" and the yards of infraction are given from the previous line of scrimmage. The ball carrier gets no credit for the 4 yard run because the play was reset (essentially never happened). On a facemask, the play is not reset so the yards are added to the result of the play. Does that makes sense? Again, these are just my thoughts.

But, in total calculations for the game all yardage & all penalties are tracked so even though the ball carrier may not receive credit for the yards carried, they still get added into the big picture. Isn't that correct?

Yes all "official" yardage gains are credited. However, the 4 yards in question would not be tallied toward either the running backs yards, or the teams total offensive yardage. Nor would the carry count against the back's yards per carry..., because again, the play actually never happened for all intense and purposes. Conversly, the same would hold true on a sack following an offsides penalty. The defensive player would not be credited the sack if the penalty was accepted. Another twist. If an offensive lineman "holds" a defensive lineman on a play and a sack takes place, it would be up to the defense to accept or decline the penalty. If accepted, the infraction is marked off and the sack does not count for the player. However, if the defense declines the penalty, the ball rest at the spot of the sack and the sack does count for the player.

You are correct that penalty yardage is tallied and tracked, but is not included in the offensive yardage calculations. It is a totally seperate stat.

I got to thinking about this a little more. If offense is called for a false start, then the play is called dead, hence no yardage will be gained by any player as that play didn't happen. However, the penalty yardage, of course, will be tracked and ultimately deducated from total yardage accumulated by that team.

Now, if defense is offsides, the play continues and the ball carrier is given credit for his yardage as the play is allowed to come to fruition. The penalty yardage will not be added onto his total, of course, BUT will be calculated against the defense in total penalties. For those who know about keeping stats at the games, here's a question ~ When a defense receives a penalty, do those yards get tabulated against their total yardage given up that day? i.e. Cal gave up 300 physical yards to the Ducks and had 100 yards of penalties against their defense. Does that mean that the Cal defense gets credited with giving up 400 yards to the Ducks?

Penalties are not counted in terms of yards given up, nor added to an offensive total (team or individual). If it results in a first down then that stat is officially credited (either against or for). Penalties are tabulated on a seperate ledger.

Greydrake wrote:Penalties are not counted in terms of yards given up, nor added to an offensive total (team or individual). If it results in a first down then that stat is officially credited (either against or for). Penalties are tabulated on a seperate ledger.

I thought so, but wanted to make sure. Thanks!