Remember that "Level 10" Yahoo story?

[L Perry]

I'm not calling for excessive punishment, but the punishment should fit the violation. This is the easily the worst set of violations (that we know about) in the last 30 years. If there isn't a strong penalty then it shows every other school you can cheat all you want, because the punishment really won't get too bad. This is the culture of the Miami program.

No. It doesn't. There isn't a program in the nation that doesn't want to avoid the punishment that USC received.

"on December 20, 1995 the NCAA announced that Miami would be subject to severe sanctions for numerous infractions within the athletic department. Among the sanctions was a one-year ban from postseason participation and a scholarship reduction of 31 over a three year period beginning in 1996.

...

Yes. 10 years before this latest incident, others were caught doing some unrelated violation and were punished for it. Different time, different people involved, penalty already served.

It was 7 years after and Paul Dee (the former Miami AD/ former NCAA infractions commitee chairman) was around for both sets of violations. "Dee himself, AD from 1993-2008" (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... -hypocrisy) Miami clearly has a culture of violations. These violations are not isolated. These violations are not minor. Sure teams would rather not have sanctions, but if you can break the rules repeatedly (extreme violations in both periods) you should expect the level of sanctions to rise. If you took all the violation (and possibly the rumors too) from the last three years in bcs-subdivision football multiplied them by 3 and added prostitutes you might not even get to level Miami was operating at.

There are also players who are part of the violations currently on the team, the violations involving Shapiro ended in 2010. Plenty of people who were part of this are still around. Yea it sucks for Al Golden, but it doesn't mean Miami shouldn't get strong punishment.

Yep!!

[buckmarkduck]

I keep questioning is how can Miami get in trouble for a guy buying hookers, yet at UW they get no punishment for their players selling hookers?

[wheaton4prez]

It was 7 years after and Paul Dee (the former Miami AD/ former NCAA infractions commitee chairman) was around for both sets of violations. "Dee himself, AD from 1993-2008" (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... -hypocrisy) Miami clearly has a culture of violations. These violations are not isolated. These violations are not minor. Sure teams would rather not have sanctions, but if you can break the rules repeatedly (extreme violations in both periods) you should expect the level of sanctions to rise. If you took all the violation (and possibly the rumors too) from the last three years in bcs-subdivision football multiplied them by 3 and added prostitutes you might not even get to level Miami was operating at.

There are also players who are part of the violations currently on the team, the violations involving Shapiro ended in 2010. Plenty of people who were part of this are still around. Yea it sucks for Al Golden, but it doesn't mean Miami shouldn't get strong punishment.

Yes they are. By "7 years" as you point out. They are further isolated by completely different individuals and completely different acts. Dee may or may not have been directly involved. Either way, he has been held accountable by being fired. I'm pretty sure that the others involved will be fired or kicked off the team as well. But you want to fire innocent people because they worked in the same building?

And again, nobody is arguing for "not having sanctions". Just that at some point, greater severity in sanctions serve no sensible purpose.

[L Perry]

It was 7 years after and Paul Dee (the former Miami AD/ former NCAA infractions commitee chairman) was around for both sets of violations. "Dee himself, AD from 1993-2008" (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... -hypocrisy) Miami clearly has a culture of violations. These violations are not isolated. These violations are not minor. Sure teams would rather not have sanctions, but if you can break the rules repeatedly (extreme violations in both periods) you should expect the level of sanctions to rise. If you took all the violation (and possibly the rumors too) from the last three years in bcs-subdivision football multiplied them by 3 and added prostitutes you might not even get to level Miami was operating at.

There are also players who are part of the violations currently on the team, the violations involving Shapiro ended in 2010. Plenty of people who were part of this are still around. Yea it sucks for Al Golden, but it doesn't mean Miami shouldn't get strong punishment.

Yes they are. By "7 years" as you point out. They are further isolated by completely different individuals and completely different acts. Dee may or may not have been directly involved. Either way, he has been held accountable by being fired. I'm pretty sure that the others involved will be fired or kicked off the team as well. But you want to fire innocent people because they worked in the same building?

And again, nobody is arguing for "not having sanctions". Just that at some point, greater severity in sanctions serve no sensible purpose.

Right, because they surely learned the lesson the last time.

[wheaton4prez]

These were two different incidents involving different people. Neither the SMU death penalty or the earlier Miami penalty played any significant role in the last groups decision to commit violations. This demonstrates my point that death penalties serve no good purpose.

[greenyellow]

These were two different incidents involving different people. Neither the SMU death penalty or the earlier Miami penalty played any significant role in the last groups decision to commit violations. This demonstrates my point that death penalties serve no good purpose.

I doubt we see the death penalty in this case. More like 5 year bowl and TV bans, plus loss of scholarships.

[buckmarkduck]

Morehead St got the death penalty in 2005 for basketball. It's not like they are against using it, just not against their cash cows.

[greenyellow]

Morehead St got the death penalty in 2005 for basketball. It's not like they are against using it, just not against their cash cows.

That's kind of what I was going for. The NCAA is not going to kill off a well-known program like they did with SMU.

[squintsdd]

The logic of "no death penalty" can apply to all parts of life, not just football. Why throw people in prison for life after they murdered someone? Clearly it's not detering others from commiting murder. The reason is simple. You do it because the person deserves it. Just like with the death penalty for Miami, they deserve it. I'm willing to bet that there is still high ranking staff at Miami that were involved and said nothing, and we know there are players still at Miami that were involved. It sucks for those that are at Miami that weren't involved, but that's the way it works, one person can ruin it for everyone. I can no longer walk through a security check point without being searched because some assholes decided to turn a couple planes into large bombs.

[RanDux]

The logic of "no death penalty" can apply to all parts of life, not just football. Why throw people in prison for life after they murdered someone? Clearly it's not detering others from commiting murder. The reason is simple. You do it because the person deserves it. Just like with the death penalty for Miami, they deserve it. I'm willing to bet that there is still high ranking staff at Miami that were involved and said nothing, and we know there are players still at Miami that were involved. It sucks for those that are at Miami that weren't involved, but that's the way it works, one person can ruin it for everyone. I can no longer walk through a security check point without being searched because some assholes decided to turn a couple planes into large bombs.

Giving uninvolved players the right to transfer helps with the fairness issue.

[wheaton4prez]

The logic of "no death penalty" can apply to all parts of life, not just football. Why throw people in prison for life after they murdered someone? Clearly it's not detering others from commiting murder. The reason is simple. You do it because the person deserves it. Just like with the death penalty for Miami, they deserve it. I'm willing to bet that there is still high ranking staff at Miami that were involved and said nothing, and we know there are players still at Miami that were involved. It sucks for those that are at Miami that weren't involved, but that's the way it works, one person can ruin it for everyone. I can no longer walk through a security check point without being searched because some assholes decided to turn a couple planes into large bombs.

A) There is statistical evidence that the death penalty (as in electrocution) does deter crime. I'm not aware of any evidence showing that the death penalty in sports has a similar effect. Probably because players can just go to the NFL anyway without penalty. There is no NFL for murderers to advance to.

B) It also provides justice for a victim and their family. There is no similar victim in the Miami case that deserves justice for what they did.

C) It is only applied to the person responsible for the crime. The death penalty in sports affects more innocent people than guilty.

It's like putting to death the family of a murderer, even though they weren't involved in the crime. I don't think they "deserve it".

[Boom]

Morehead St got the death penalty in 2005 for basketball. It's not like they are against using it, just not against their cash cows.

That's kind of what I was going for. The NCAA is not going to kill off a well-known program like they did with SMU.

Agreed... there is way to much money involved in this case.... which further supports my conclusion that the NCAA's stance on "amateur athletics" is a big scam.

[squintsdd]

The logic of "no death penalty" can apply to all parts of life, not just football. Why throw people in prison for life after they murdered someone? Clearly it's not detering others from commiting murder. The reason is simple. You do it because the person deserves it. Just like with the death penalty for Miami, they deserve it. I'm willing to bet that there is still high ranking staff at Miami that were involved and said nothing, and we know there are players still at Miami that were involved. It sucks for those that are at Miami that weren't involved, but that's the way it works, one person can ruin it for everyone. I can no longer walk through a security check point without being searched because some assholes decided to turn a couple planes into large bombs.

A) There is statistical evidence that the death penalty (as in electrocution) does deter crime. I'm not aware of any evidence showing that the death penalty in sports has a similar effect. Probably because players can just go to the NFL anyway without penalty. There is no NFL for murderers to advance to.

B) It also provides justice for a victim and their family. There is no similar victim in the Miami case that deserves justice for what they did.

C) It is only applied to the person responsible for the crime. The death penalty in sports affects more innocent people than guilty.

It's like putting to death the family of a murderer, even though they weren't involved in the crime. I don't think they "deserve it".

A) It deters crime, but it doesn't altogether stop it. The death penalty in football would be the same thing. Teams may think twice, but there will always be the occassional team that has no reguards for the rules. If you can't hit a school where they're affected the most, their pockets, then why bother penalizing them at all? There are unfortunate bystanders, but there are things that can be done for them.

B)Any team that lost to Miami because of the illegal players would be a victim. Any team that lost out on those recruits because Miami paid to get them over there would be a victim.

C) If you think the family of the person sentenced to death isn't affected, you are sadly mistaken. Other people besides the single person being put to death are affected as well. As mentionted in this case though, the players currently at Miami that weren't involved would likely be allowed to transfer without penalty.

[wheaton4prez]

A) It deters crime, but it doesn't altogether stop it. The death penalty in football would be the same thing. Teams may think twice, but there will always be the occassional team that has no reguards for the rules. If you can't hit a school where they're affected the most, their pockets, then why bother penalizing them at all? There are unfortunate bystanders, but there are things that can be done for them.

Deterring crimes means that it stops some of them. There is evidence that the real death penalty really does stop crimes. Not so much the sports death penalty.

There are less extreme penalties than the death penalty that are just as effective as deterrents. Every program in the nation wants to avoid a USC-like penalty.

B)Any team that lost to Miami because of the illegal players would be a victim. Any team that lost out on those recruits because Miami paid to get them over there would be a victim.

There is no way to prove whether any team lost "because of" specific players, that the players wouldn't have gone to Miami anyway or that they would have remained eligible anywhere else.

This is like claiming that General Electric is a victim of Enron due to business they might have had if Enron hadn't been an effective competitor at one point.

C) If you think the family of the person sentenced to death isn't affected, you are sadly mistaken. Other people besides the single person being put to death are affected as well. As mentionted in this case though, the players currently at Miami that weren't involved would likely be allowed to transfer without penalty.

Yes. In my mind, I was imagining that the family of a person sentenced to death goes about their business as if someone just had a flat tire...

"Affected" is not the same as "punished". The death penalty punishes an entire program. A program consists of people who have honest jobs, stake-holders who have invested directly into the program, players who have pinned their hopes for a pro career on Miami, etc.

Transferring "without penalty" is not "without penalty". The chances for those kids to reach a successful pro career would be greatly diminished, if not destroyed. Not for a decision that the guilty parties made. But, for the decision of others to exact a punishment on them for something that current NFL players, making millions, did.

And why? To make random fans from other schools feel content that "something was done." Bulls in a china cabinet.

[L Perry]

BZZZZZZT..BZZZZZZT thats the sound of old sparky warming up!!!!